Monday, November 26, 2007

The Beast Empire—Daniel's Statue: Part 1

The book of Daniel is deep water, and I am not attempting to address every detail. That kind of mission would need much more attention and time than me and my little blog have (and probably much more understanding). But I love the book of Daniel and desire that others at least get the basics of the dreams and visions and how they relate to the end and to the book of Revelation.

I will also be linking Daniel's vision to John's vision in the book of Revelation, and will address many of the interpretations out there that I believe fall short of biblical accuracy. I’m not sure how many posts it will take to do this somewhat adequately, but at least eight or nine, I’m sure. And I will certainly get a chance to create some new charts that readers will either love or hate!

Daniel Chapter Two

In Daniel chapter two Daniel interprets king Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. He informs the king that the statue represents kingdoms, that the gold head of the statue represents the king and that there will be four more kingdoms after him.

Daniel said:
…You (king Nebuchadnezzar/Babylon) are the head of gold. After you there will arise another kingdom inferior to you (Medo/Persian), then another third kingdom of bronze (Greece), which will rule over all the earth. (Dan. 2:38-39)

Now we come to the fourth kingdom. I recently read a book called Antichrist: Islam’s Awaited Messiah which presented a different beast scenario than the one I’m presenting. While I think that my conclusions have more merit, I admit that there are still details that I haven’t completely worked out yet, and I’m willing to say that I’m still thinking about Joel Richardson’s conclusions. At this point I’m not willing to be completely dogmatic about the fourth kingdom and whether it was Rome or Islamic, yet I will be writing from the perspective that it was Rome because it seems more logical to me. I would suggest that you compare my conclusions with your Bible, evaluate other end times scenarios and see what conclusions you come to after your own search.

The Fourth Kingdom

Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces. (Dan. 2:40)

The Antichrist’s Kingdom

In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay.

As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle.

And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery. (Dan. 2:41-43)

This final kingdom that is described as the feet and toes of the statue is the kingdom of the Antichrist, otherwise known as the “Little Horn” as he’s named in Daniel 7. As we continue we will find that these toes, or “kings,” are mentioned for a reason, and that the number of toes one’s feet has corresponds to the number of kings that give their power and authority to the Antichrist. These toes/kings will be seen again as we look into another vision of Daniel’s and into John’s vision in Revelation.

Click here to go to The Beast Empire—Daniel's Beasts: Part 2.



34 comments:

Aletheuo said...

Dave,

Before you get too far into this, consider a couple of things first.

1. The "antichrist" is not a singular human being, it is ONLY a spirit or belief. Christ is a spirit, He is the "chosen ONE" of God. Jesus, in human flesh, was the embodiment of that. The Son, the Word and the "anointed one" of God.

All four places "antichrist" is mentioned it only speaks of a spirit, belief or denying mind set that Jesus is not the anointed one of God. The human embodiment of that "antichrist" spirit is the coming false prophet.

Satan is the perfect antithetical mirror image of the true Godhead. Satan believes himself to be God and even claims he will set his throne above that of God (Isa. 14:13). The spirit that drives him, like the Holy Spirit, is that spirit of antichrist. That is the beast seen in Rev. 19:20 & 20:10.

2. The only way anyone can even remotely consider the fourth Kingdom is Rome is to deny the "HE" of the confirmed covenant is anyone but Jesus. It has been taught (falsely) that Daniel 9:24-27 is speaking to the destruction of the temple by the Roman Titus and therefore, the "the people of the prince that shall come" must be Roman. Not so.

The passage speaks only to the "sanctuary" (qodesh) inner most holy of holies. That was Jesus Dave, as seen in John 2:21;

But he spake of the temple of his body.

The "people" were the Israelites seen in Matthew 27:25;

Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

Jesus IS the covenant. (Isa. 46:2, 49:8).

That is what Gabriel was talking about Dave, Jesus, the coming Prince of peace.

The covenant was confirmed first in heaven between Christ and God (Gal. 3:17).

It was confirmed on earth at the cross (Rom. 15:8).

The fourth "beast kingdom?" Islam, the seed from Hagar through Ishmael and Esau. Mount Seir in Ezekiel 35. Arabia seen in Gal. 4:22-31.

Consider it Dave, just study it and consider it before you go too deep into this study.

In Christ Jesus,

Michael

raul delgado said...

aletheuo,
I do believe that the Anti-Christ will be a single human being known as the "lawless one" or "man of perdition", who will be possessed by an evil spirit. He will be allotted a 42-month reign. He will speak blasphemy and will persecute the saints. And, he will kill the Two Witnesses.

Aletheuo said...

Raul,

Millions believe there is a seven year "tribulation" but there is not one passage in the entire Bible that claims that. Can you show just where this "antichrist" guy is? I can't seem to find him.

Particulary when this individual, who is being touted as the epitome of evil, is never spoken of nor even present when the false prophet and the "beast" are tossed into the lake of fire.

Where is the "antichrist" guy there? Why is this individual, as so many falsely claim he is, never once spoken of?

Antichrist is precisely what God's Word says it is, a spirit. A spirit of belief that denies Jesus. It is that spirit that indwells the false prophet.

The false prophet is the "human of the" son of destruction. The "son of destruction" is Satan.

You are free to believe what you wish, however, I would first see if God's Word even states what you believe before you set your beliefs on it.

There are 1.3 BILLION Muslims who believe the lies of Satan that Allah is the God of creation. That does not make it the truth.

In Christ Jesus,

Michael

raul delgado said...

aletheuo,
I too would say that there is not a 7 year "tribulation". But, I do believe that there is a future 7 year period known as Daniel's 70th Week.

Now, concerning the Anti-Christ... Yes, the scriptures do speak of the "spirit of antichrist" or "many antichrists" in a general sense. But, the scriptures also speak of "The Anti-Christ", who is yet to come and deceive many. His side-kick will be "The False Prophet" even though the scriptures also warn of "many false prophets", right? In Revelation, the Anti-Christ is the first Beast, which rises out of the sea. The False Prophet is the second beast, which rises out of the earth. And, they are the two who are ultimately seized and tormented[Revelation 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.]. Here are some other scriptures that speak of the Anti-Christ.

Daniel 7:25, Daniel 8:25, Daniel 9:27, Daniel 11:36, Matthew 24:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 13, Revelation 17, Revelation 20:10 There are more, but these should help. Remember, the Anti-Christ will commit the Abomination of Desolation in the middle of Daniel's 70th Week. Also, the False Prophet gets people to worship the Anti-Christ. This should help clarify things for you. Who taught you that there wouldn't be a future Anti-Christ?

Aletheuo said...

Raul,

Close but no cigar.

The "beast in the sea" is Satan just as spoken of in Isaiah 27:1;

In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

The "beast from the earth" is not the false prophet, it is Islam. The seven heads are the seven spirits of Satan that are the antithetical evil opposite of the seven spirits of God. Rev. 1:4, 3:1,4:5 & 5:6.

Daniel 7:25, 8:25, 11:36, is the false prophet. Daniel 9:27 is Jesus. Jesus IS the covenant sent by God just as spoken to in Isaiah 42:6 and 48:9;

I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

That covenant was confirmed by Christ 430 years before Moses even got the covenant of the law. Galatians 3:17;

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

It was confirmed at the cross as Romans 15:8 clearly states.

The entire answer to Daniel's prayer was for his people (Israel) and the holy city.

The first half of the 70th week was fufilled in Jesus' ministry,(Isa. 61:1&2a, Lk. 4:19) the second half is the "day of vengeance" Isaiah 61:2b.

There is no individual antichrist.The "human OF THE son of destruction" is the false prophet, the "mouth" of Satan embodied by that spirit of antichrist.

Nobody "taught" me, His Word says it Raul. Nowhere does His Word say "THE antichrist." as you claimed. Never is any one singular individual spoken of Raul, it is a fabrication that must exist in the teachings of false teachers to make their false doctrine fit.

PWTribune said...

Aletheuo,

Who is the "little horn" of Daniel 7?
Who is the beast whose fatal wound was healed in Rev 13? Who is the "eighth king" that is one of the seven in Rev 17? The man of lawlessness of 2 Thess? Raul listed some nice other passages that clearly speak of the A, also (thanks Raul).

You have said so many things I would like to address, but it's tough to address an individuals entire end times belief system. It's just too much to take on. Try to stay alive at least 20 more years so that I can debate you when I have more time after I retire. :)

raul delgado said...

aletheuo,
Satan, the Anti-Christ, and the False Prophet are in a sense the unholy trinity.

The Day of Vengeance is synonymous with the Day of the Lord or Day of His Wrath, which occurs after the Great Tribulation period. In other words, the second half of Daniel's 70th Week is composed of both the Great Tribulation Period and the Day of the Lord Period. Together, they make-up the time, times, and half a time. So, no, the Day of Vengeance Period is not equal to the entire second half of Daniel's 70th Week.

Aletheuo said...

Dave,

Simple questions with simple answers.

You asked who the little horn of Daniel 7:8 that is identified:

..in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

The false prophet.

You ask who is the beast whose head was wounded?

First the entire "beast" is not wounded. Only one of it's heads. Rev. 13:3;

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

That too is easy. It is the same "head" seen in verse 14 that was "wounded by the Sword." That "Sword" is Jesus, the Word. It is that "head" of the Satanic power that Jesus defeated at the cross that has the power of death over men.

It is that antichrist spirit that "was" (before Jesus defeated it) and "is not" (no power over believers) and "yet is" (still has power over non-believers).

You ask who is the 8th that is of the 7 seen in Rev. 17:11 is that same entity. It rises again in the embodiment of the false prophet as he follows the spirit of antichrist taking his power from Satan, the beast in the sea.

And the man of lawlessness? First that terminology is not used. I believe you are speaking of the "man of sin" in verse 3. That is the false prophet.

There is only one human entity that fulfills the Satanic godhead, that is the false prophet.

And I will not be here 20 years. I am retired and all I do is study His Word. There is always time for Him and His Word.

Aletheuo said...

Dave,

Satan is the antithetical opposite of God the Father. He believes he is God.

The antichrist spirit is the antithetical opposite of the Holy Spirit.

The false prophet is the opposite of Jesus in the Satanic godhead.

You make a pretty bold statment about the 70th week. Got any Scripture to substantiate that?

The "day of vengeance" is Jacob's trouble, 3 1/2 years long. Jer. 30:7, Dan. 7:25, 12:7 and Rev. 12:14.

Jesus stopped in His reading in Luke 4:19 because His ministry was to "preach the acceptable year of the Lord" for Israel then go to the cross.

The second half of the week "determined upon thy people" (Israel)is that which is spoken to in Isaiah 61:2b;

"...the day of vengeance of our God..."

Pretty simple really, I'm surprised you can't see the simplicity in it.

Anonymous said...

Hello Michael-

Nice to see you still interested in prophecy. I read through your comments and they are thought provoking. We shouldn't become so comfortable with our views that we are unable to articulate them if someone with another view comes along.

You would say that the false prophet is also the little horn and the eighth king. This would give the false prophet a political position. Yet the scriptures which describe the false prophet show him pointing to one who is in a political position. The false prophet's sole duty is to cause people to worship the beast (whose sole duty is to cause people to worship the dragon). The dragon is Satan and since the beast causes people to worship the dragon, so the beast and the dragon cannot be one and the same.

The beast is given a mouth in Revelation 14:5-6, which corresponds with Daniel 7:8 which shows that the little horn will have a mouth speaking great things. The beast from the sea represents both the political system and the man who will sit as head of the political system at the end of the age. This is why we are given the interpretation of what the seven heads and ten horns represents. The little horn makes war against the saints, the beast from the sea makes war against the saints. The false prophet supports the beast in his war against the saints.

Seeing the beast as both the kingdom and the king is consistent with Old Testament symbology. The lion in Daniel 7:4 is both Babylon and also Nebuchadnezzar. Babylon is pictured in the lion, but Nebuchadnezzar was the one who received a man's heart, not the entire kingdom.

The beast is a king to whom ten kings give their power to. This is why the common interpretation is for the beast with ten horns to be both the kingdom and the king. The false prophet on the other hand, only has two horns. The authority which he possesses will only be over two kingdoms as opposed to the beast (who most people term the antichrist) who will have authority over ten kingdoms.

While I think the role of the false prophet is downplayed by many and should receive more emphasis as you are giving to him, I believe that Revelation 16:10 shows that the beast is sitting on the throne of the kingdom at that time. He is the one who is in dominion over all others in his kingdom. He is the one who will lead the kings of the earth into battle against Christ in Revelation 19:19.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

Aletheuo said...

Orange Mailman,

You said:

We shouldn't become so comfortable with our views that we are unable to articulate them if someone with another view comes along.

Then you go on to tell me what "IS" and leave no room for the possibility you may just be mistaken. Perhaps a tad bit of your own advice to temper what you claim is in order.

Your statements like the following are somewhat redundant, are they not?

You would say that the false prophet is also the little horn and the eighth king. This would give the false prophet a political position. Yet the scriptures which describe the false prophet show him pointing to one who is in a political position.

There are more than one "beast" being spoken to. The "beast" or dragon (therion, Gr. meaning wild animal) is one "beast." The "beast from the earth" is another. Then again the entire "beast kingdom" is yet another.

Did it never occur that what Paul stated in Ephesians 6:12 is extremely applicable and we are not looking at physical human entities?

The only human being that is the supreme "image" (eikon) of Satan is his representative, the false prophet. Satan, whether you use the terminology of beast, dragon, serpent, leviathan or Devil, you are speaking of one entity.

Within that spiritual entity are differnt attributes. Just as God has seven spirits, or spirit attributes, within His Holy Spirit, so too does Satan have defferent attributes, hence seven "heads."

Not everything is so easily explained away by following the teachings of men like Darby and Anderson.

In my original post I asked only for Dave to consider the possibility of a differnt view that is verifiable by Scripture, not man's interpretation.

Satan is the epitome of deceit, lies and seduction. He is a beast (roaring lion) as Jesus even described. He is the antithetical evil opposite of God in all attributes and a Spirit with different attributes. He must have a human being to do his bidding as he can only function in the hearts of men as he deceives and cause men to sin and disobey God.

He causes men to believe a lie.

There is no doubt in my heart or mind, that Islam is the fourth beast kingdom. It's king is the false prophet (funny how Islam calls their man a prophet). It was birthed from the seed of Hagar through Ishmael and Esau in Arabia.

And Jesus is the "confirmer of the covenant" not some non-existant antichrist man. Antichrist is only a spirit of belief.

One day we will all know for certain won't we?

In Christ Jesus,

Michael

Aletheuo said...

Something else to consider about this "beast from the earth" being Islam.

Islam was birthed in Arabia, the same place Hagar and her offspring moved to called mount Seir, Idumea or Edom. Gen. 36:6-8.

Agar (Hagar) and her children (Islam) are the children of bondge seen in Galatians 4:24 & 25;

24: Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25: For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.


This "beast" has ten horns. Dan. 7:24. Revelation 17:12 tells us these ten horns are ten kings which had not risen yet.

Were you aware since this new, diverse Islamic kingdom has arisen from Iran since 1979 it has had 9 "kings?" Ahmadinejad is the ninth Islamic Iranian president. If he goes one more then the false prophet arises from the midst, just as Dan. 7:24 states.

It also states he will be diverse from the others. Why? Because he is not so much a politician but the 12th Imam, the Mahdi, Islam's "messiah." The FALSE prophet.

Just some more points to consider.

In Christ Jesus,

Michael

raul delgado said...

aletheuo,
Do you see now that the second half of Daniel's 70th Week is composed of two periods. The first one is the Great Tribulation and it starts in the middle of Daniel's 70th Week. This is when the A/C persecutes the saints. Then, afterwards, the Great Tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect. The celestial sign appears. The elect are raptured because they are not appointed unto wrath. Then, the second period, known as the Day of the Lord/Vengeance/Wrath gets underway and runs til the end of Daniel's 70th Week. Together they compose the time, times, and half a time. So, again, your assertion that the Day of Vengeance encompasses the entire second half of Daniel's 70th Week has no scriptural basis. Read and compare Matthew 24, Revelation 6, and Joel 2.

Question: So, no one taught you this unique belief system, but instead, you made it up yourself based on your private interpretation of scripture, right?. What then is your rapture view?

Aletheuo said...

Raul,

I have never seen such a convoluted mixed up view of Daniel's 70th week. Now the second half, the "time, times and a half" and 1,260 days or 42 months is divided again into two periods?

Now the elect of God are "raptured" (bad choice of words, the real word is harpazo or apostasia) halfway into the second half of the week? And you ask me my view of the "harpazo?"

It is simple. The "harpazo/apostasia" occurs just before the "time of Jacob's trouble" that is only 3 1/2 years long. BTW the meaning of the feminine noun "apostasia" is in reference to a singular event. Falling away from faith is "parapipto" as used in Hebrews 6:6;

If they shall fall away (parapipto), to renew them again unto repentance...

Explain the significance and correlation of Matthew 24, Revelation 6 and Joel 2. Just pointing to passages is meaningless without your explanation of what it is you are attempting to stress. I cannot read your thoughts.

And only by His Spirit that "guides us into all truth" did this come about. Every supposition made by men absolutely falls flat when stood against God's Word. I don't need the twisted "merchandise" of false teachers to lead me to the truth Raul, only His Spirit as my guide.

I use the original (as close as possible) in the original languages for my study aids.

You stated:

So, again, your assertion that the Day of Vengeance encompasses the entire second half of Daniel's 70th Week has no scriptural basis.

Really? Then explain where the first half is and where the dividing line between the two is.

I base what I have stated on the prophecy in Isaiah 61 that foretold Messiah's coming. Jesus spoke the words as recorded in Luke 4:18 & 19 and stopped after:

To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

That was the first half of the week "determined upon thy people" (Israel).

The second half i Jacob's trouble and is even described by Jesus in Rev. 12:7 that parallels the prophecy in Jeremiah 30:7-24.

I have addressed all of your questions, how about answering mine so I can get an understanding of what it is you are attempting to say? Tossing Scripture references with no explanation as to what you are pointing to is simple obfuscation and meaningless for useful discourse Raul.

In Christ Jesus,

Michael

Anonymous said...

Hello Michael-

My comment about not being so comfortable with our views was actually about myself. I was reevaluating my position as I contemplated your position. Your views caused me to review my views. I did not mean that I expect you to reevaluate everything you believe based on some comments from me. I am setting my views side by side with yours.

The only question you seem to want an answer from me on is this one, "Did it never occur that what Paul stated in Ephesians 6:12 is extremely applicable and we are not looking at physical human entities?" Yes, this has occurred to me. I suppose that's the short answer. But I'll give you the bonus plan as well.

These beasts in Revelation are certainly not the way they physically appear. They are spiritual entities, but there is symbology involved which is explained to some degree in the scriptures. The heads and horns symbolize something.

So when we come to the explanation of one aspect of this beast in Revelation 17:11, we see that the beast (the context here is seven heads and ten horns) is a king which is eighth in a series and is of the seven. Ten kings give their power to the beast (the eighth king) for a short period of time. I don't claim to know what all this means, but it is interesting.

Your response to me concedes that Satan must have a human being to do his bidding. Why not a political leader (the eighth king) with ten kings under his control, and a false prophet who causes the world to worship this leader?

Like you write, "One day we will all know for certain won't we?"

Amen.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

Aletheuo said...

OM,

Thanks for the response. Forgive me if my signals got crossed in what you were asking.

This "king" from Revelation 17:11 could very well wield political power, however it says:

...and goeth into perdition."

Verse 8 tells us who that is:

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

It has to already be in the bottomless pit and comes out only to go into perdition, or the lake of fire. That tells us where to look. Revelation 20:2;

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years

Vrerse 10 then tells us he is tossed into perdition. That "beast" is the entire entity known as Satan, the "beast in the sea."

That part or head "wounded by the Sword (Jesus)" (Rev. 13:14) is that which can cause death. It is he that Jesus speaks to in Mt. 10:28;

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

He is of the seven (spirit heads) because he "was, and is not and yet is" and raises his ugly head again during Jacob's trouble as the "image" (eikon) of the east Satan.

The other curious thing is the ten kings are all of the same fourth kingdom and only rule a short hour with the beast. There have been 9 Islamic Presidents of Iran since 1979. That is just 3.1 years each on average.

Islam so parallels Judaism and Christianity and even claims roots to Abraham except Ishmael was the chosen son and Hagar Abrahams true wife. Islam is, in my beliefe, the "beast from the earth" doing Satan's bidding. The 12th Imam will come and take charge then moment we leave.

That is what I see. Drop by my site and read the studies I have all laid out in BIBLE STUDY.

http://p103.ezboard.com/bwonderfulone

In Christ Jesus,

Michael

raul delgado said...

aletheuo,
If you read and compare Matthew 24, Revelation 6, and Joel 2 you will see that the Day of the Lord period comes after the Great Tribulation period. I could be more specific, but I want you to discover it for yourself. Come on, you can do it. It's all there.

"Apostasy" refers to falling away from the faith. Just look at several literal translations and you'll see that there is a consensus for that. It does not refer to a departure from the earth or in other words, the rapture, which term you dislike, but nevertheless understood what I was talking about.

You asked where the first half of Daniel 70th Week was? It comes before the second half, duh? :)

The Abomination of Desolation occurs in the middle of the Week. This is when the Great Tribulation commences. Also, this is when the A/C begins his 42 month allotted reign. And, this is when the Two Witnesses begin their work as well. Now, the Great Tribulation runs for an unspecified length of time. But then the rapture(you know what I mean by that) cuts short the A/C's persecution of the elect. The Day of Wrath then gets underway. Just as we don't how long the Great Tribulation will last nor do we know the length of Day of Wrath period. But, we do know that together they will last 3.5 years.

"obfuscation"(note to self) means confusion or blurring. Thanks, I had to look that one up. :)

So, you seem pretty convinced that "aletheuoism" is based on correct biblical interpretation.

Question: Do you know who Joseph Smith, Jr. and Charles Taze Russell were? Just wondering...

PWTribune said...

Aletheuo>It is simple. The "harpazo/apostasia" occurs just before the "time of Jacob's trouble" that is only 3 1/2 years long.<


Now you're saying that we will be removed BEFORE "Jacob's trouble?" Again, sorry for not taking on all of your arguments, but there are just too many. I suspect we will have to just wait and see, as you suggested.

Dave

Aletheuo said...

Raul,

I am trying to discern what it is you are trying to say and your little pointed sarcastic witticisms are less than appreciated.

You asked me pointed questions and I responded so you will understand where I am coming from. I ask the same coutesy and you tell me to read and figure it out for myself.

I have studied it and I have come to the full conclusion and I disagree with your assumptions. I was merely trying to get you to explain your position but apparently even that is out of your realm of understanding.

I began by addressing Dave asking him to CONSIDER some points and you decide I am some target for your immature retorts. I was interested in our Lords's Word and the POSSIBILITY that what has been standard teaching is incorrect. You jump in and start meaningless discourse. Apparently it makes you feel superior or something, I don't know.

Your response about the first half of the week being beofre the second DUH tells much about your level of maturity. It is apparent that carrying on a mature, Christian based discussion is not on your agenda Raul.

Sad when someone simply seeks to gain in knowledge and share thoughts, pernicious people like you just have to ruin the simplicity of discourse.

The questions regarding Russell and Smith have no relevance to this discussion. I know who these false teachers and charlatans are and do not follow one thing they profess. What's the cheap shot for?

I forgot, that's your style Raul. Some Brother in Christ you are.

Michael

PWTribune said...

Aletheuo, if you want to know the basics of what Raul believes so that you don't have to figure it out yourself, look to the left of my page under "Must Read Posts." The 5th one down is called "Pre-wrath Simplified." It's short and sweet.

Dave

raul delgado said...

aletheuo,
"pernicious" hey, what does that mean? Let's see it means harmful or destructive. Ouch!:o But good word. :)

Relax and take a deep breath... I was just having a little fun with you. Really, I was just kidding with you. You seem like a great fellow, who has obviously invested a lot of time seeking eschatological answers. We've just come to different conclusions. So far, you disagree with my views and I with yours. But, I'm sure we agree on other things. So, are we good? Come on, what do you say? :)

Aletheuo said...

Dave,

You asked:

Now you're saying that we will be removed BEFORE "Jacob's trouble?"

Why do you think God named it "JACOB'S" trouble?

It is intended for Israel, Jacob's seed. The bloodline of Jacob. Gen. 32:28, 35:10.

The Gentiles were offered the promise Israel (Jacob) rejected when they sent Jesus to the cross.

Those who become born again believers in Jesus as the true Messiah will NOT be here.

Believers are not appointed unto wrath. ANY wrath, which is inclusive of the Lamb's wrath in Revelation 6:16 & 17.

Are you aware the wrath of the Lamb (Jesus) is different than the wrath of the devil (Rev. 12:12) and the wrath of God (Rev. 16)?

The Greek used in describing the Lamb's wrath is "orge" (or-gay') and means indignation and an attempt to draw one near and away from something. It is like a parent spanking his child trying to turn them from what they are doing to help them.

The Greek ONLY used in decsribing the wrath of the devil and God is always "thumos" (thoo-mos') and means all consuming fire. Total destruction.

There are many who come out of this time AFTER the body of believers have been taken home in the harpazo/apostasia seen in Rev. 20:4 who refused to worship the beast.

They have to turn to salvation in Christ during the period of His wrath (orge) prior to the "thumos" of Satan and finally God.

It is all intended for Israel (Jacob). God gave all mankind 2,000 years to come to His covenant, refuse that gift before the 3 1/2 year long Jacob's trouble and you get to share in it.

And just before Jesus returns and stops the carnage, 2/3 of Israel (Jacob's seed) will die Zech. 13:8 & 9.

The first half of the 70th week was "preaching the acceptable year of the Lord" (salvation had come iin Christ). That was Jesus ministry that was 3 1/2 years long.

Jacob's trouble is the second half "determined upon thy people" (Israel/Jacob) named Jacob's trouble.

Michael

PWTribune said...

Michael,

So because it was spoken of as being for Jacob’s people it is EXCLUSIVELY for physical Israel? Then the new covenant is not for us either because it was given to Israel.

Days are coming, Declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. (Jer. 31:31)

Not only that, but the ten commandments were given to Israel, too. Does the ten commandments, then, ONLY have application for Israel? Of course not, because as we’ve learned from the new testament that both have applications to us (just as we’ve been clearly taught that the great trib is for us as well).

Interestingly enough, just as the new covenant was given to “the house of Israel and Judah,” the time of Jacob’s trouble was spoken of in the same language.

Now these are the words which the Lord spoke concerning Israel and concerning Judah. (Jer. 30:4) …And it is the time of Jacob’s distress. (v. 7)

So according to what you’re teaching, one cannot possibly be for us because it was given to Israel, but one CAN be for us? You’re making the classic leap of logic that many make when they conclude that it must be ONLY for Israel because it’s simply said (in the old testament) that it’s for Israel. But this is said by God to Israel all the time without Him adding, “Oh yeah, this has application to the Church, as well.” Since when does the old testament clarify that its truth has application to the Church when something does indeed have application for us/the Church?

The news just informed me that Des Moines is going to get bad weather on Saturday. Are you the guy that will then conclude, “Whew, I’m glad I’M not going to experience bad weather, because the news said it was for Des Moines?” But, just because the news said that the bad weather was for Des Moines, it nowhere comes close to being factual that there won’t ALSO be bad weather in other areas.

And sorry, you lost me when you said, “Believers are not appointed unto wrath. ANY wrath, which is inclusive of the Lamb's wrath in Revelation 6:16 & 17.”

Did you mean to say, “is NOT inclusive of the Lamb’s wrath?” That’s what I gathered when I read the rest. Not sure, though.

Dave

PWTribune said...

Michael,

And by the way, I appreciate the way you have been communicating by saying things like, "Before you get too far into this, consider a couple of things first." It's much better than than starting each post by calling me a false teacher. See, retired folk CAN still learn new things! grin

Dave

Aletheuo said...

Dave,

The covenant in the blood of Jesus was rejected by Israel.

Mt. 27:25;

Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

Just as Jeremiah 11:10 clearly states they broke the first covenant.

The new covenant for Israel, you refer to, is yet future. They "karath" (cut off) both Jesus and themselves when He was crucufied. That "cut" Israel off from both covenants.

Heb. 8:7;

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

The day has yet to come Dave. That is the "gathering of the elect of God AFTER the tribulation" in Mt. 24:29 and Mk. 13:24.

The body of believers IS NOT the "elect" of God. That alone is Israel, the bloodline of Jacob just as Isa. 45:4 states.

In "that day" as seen in Heb. 8:9 & 10;

9: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


That new covenant is seen in Ezekiel 36 & 37 AFTER Jacob's trouble when God brings "the whole house of Israel OUT OF THEIR GRAVES" (Ez. 37:11-25).

THEN is His new covenant made just as Ezekiel 37:26 states;

Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

The mistake you have made is the UN Resolution of 1948 has not one thing to do with Ez. 36 & 37. That is yet future and occurs during the 1,000 years. After that, the Gog event just as Rev. 20:7 & 8 state.

And yes I meant precisely what I said. The body of believers is not to see ANY WRATH, just as His Word states.

Then again if you really want to experience Jacob's trouble that will befall this earth, I'll bet God would oblige you Dave. Personally, I don't think it's a very wise move.

In Christ Jesus,

Michael

PWTribune said...

Michael,

What?! Now you're saying that the New Covenant mentioned in Jer. 31 has NO relevance to us, and that the author of Hebrews did not connect what was said in Jeremiah to us and the New Covenant in Christ's blood?

Of course it still has a future application to physical Israel, but to deny the link to the Church that's so clearly made in Hebrews makes it appear that you will do anything to sustain your belief that everything in the old testament is only applicable to the nation of Israel and that you will avoid the suffering of the great tribulation.

It appears as though you are saying that the new covenant we are under is DIFFERENT than the new covenant Israel will experience. They are the same covenant, only physical Israel will not take part in it until the future. Please tell me I'm misreading you.

AND you're saying that we are biblically promised not to experience Satan's wrath? Again, please tell me I'm misreading you.

Dave

Aletheuo said...

Dave,

I do not understand where you got that from what I stated. Perhaps the passage will help from Jer. 31:31:

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

That says nothing about us. It is exprssly speaking to and about Israel and Judah. Perhaps verse 33 is more telling:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Not one mention of Jesus in any of the passages about the new covenant is there? God says He will put His laws on their hearts. Ever ask yourself what "those days" are? Jacob's trouble Dave.

Israel is already God's elect chosen people (Isa. 45:4). Their rejection of Jesus was to our benefit, however, there is not one passage that states He will be the Mediator of that same covenant with Israel.

God already has a plan for Israel and it first entails Jacob's trouble for their disobedience.

God says that by that Israel will be saved. It will turn their eyes and hearts back to the God Who is a Husband to them ALREADY! (Jer. 31:32).

I'm not attempting to add anything to, or diminish anything from this. God Himself said AFTER Jesus had gone home that His new covenant with Israel would be "after those days." Heb. 8:10.

Perhaps the law He will write on their hearts is the law of Grace through Jesus, it is not specific and it IS specific God has a new covenant for them.

Perhaps you can show me explicitly where Israel will be brought into covenant with God through Jesus. I cannot even find an implication to that effect. We cannot just place values on His Word that do not exist Dave.

And regarding Satan's wrath, perhaps you showing me the passages that show the body of born again believers is going to experience ANY wrath.

1 Thes. 5:9 states;

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

Or perhaps the passages from 2 Thess. 2:1-3 telling us we will be "apostasia" (physically removed) before the false prophet is even revealed.

Paul stated : "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things"

Well what did he tell them before when he was with them? Simple Dave, read 1 Thess. 4:16 & 17. Believers will be "harpazo" and gathered unto the Lord.

No wrath Dave. Like I said if you are so convinced you want to go through what Jesus saved us from, I am certain God would probably allow you that. For me, I'll be home with Him.

In Christ Jesus,

Michael

PWTribune said...

Michael,

You don’t know where I got that from? You’ve said it again in the very next post. You’re claiming that Jeremiah 31 has no application to us, even though Hebrews 8 makes it clear that it is.

Hebrews 8:6-7
But NOW HE HAS OBTAINED a more excellent ministry, by as much as He IS THE MEDIATOR OF A BETTER COVENANT (the New Covenant), which HAS BEEN ENACTED on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for A SECOND. (Heb. 8:6-7)

Hebrews 8:6-7 explained:

Christ has obtained a more excellent ministry than the earthly high priests that preceded Him. And similarly, His New Covenant is more excellent than the previous covenant. This new covenant HAS BEEN enacted, and on better promises than the first covenant.

Then, after explaining that there was a need for a second covenant because of the faults of the first, the author of Hebrews immediately quotes Jeremiah 31 to show what the New Covenant is that he had just written of, and had just explained as “HAS BEEN ENACTED.” It would be tough for the author to make it much clearer.

Of course there is still a future application to Israel. I have not missed the clear verses that indicate this truth. But you have missed that there is more to it than that, and that what was said to Israel has clear Church applications.

You’re saying that there is ONLY an end times Israel application to the New Covenant mentioned in Hebrews 8 because of the phrase “after those days.” I agree that “after those days” is referring to the end. But…

This New Covenant application to the Church in Hebrews is very similar to a Church application in Acts. It couldn’t be more clear in Joel 2 that the prophecy is given to ISRAEL. And when Peter recites Joe 2 in Acts 2 it couldn’t be more clear that Joel’s prophecy is for the END TIMES.

Joel 2:17-18
AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, ‘That I will pour forth my Spirit on all mankind;

We know that this END TIMES prophecy for ISRAEL that Peter is speaking of is being applied to the CHURCH. How do we know this? Because Peter informs us that he’s applying it to the Church. Speaking to the crowd that heard the men speaking in tongues, Peter said:

For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: (Acts 2:15-16)

Peter then recites the Joel prophecy.

AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, ‘That I will pour forth my Spirit on all mankind;

The Church application in Hebrews 8 is no less clear than this one. They were both given to Israel. They are both speaking of an end times event that will take place with the remnant of Israel. AND they are both clearly applied to the Church, and partially fulfilled in the Church.

When one denies this they come to faulty conclusions that separate God’s prophecies from each other as one would separate leaves and limbs with a dull machete. You even take it so far as to say that maybe Israel will not need to have faith in Christ in order to be brought into the New Covenant!

You say:

“Perhaps you can show me explicitly where Israel will be brought into covenant with God through Jesus. I cannot even find an implication to that effect. We cannot just place values on His Word that do not exist Dave.”

The basics of the gospel demand it. All fall short. There are none that do good and there is only one way to please God, Michael. Faith in Christ. But considering that you seem to reject that there is only one way to enter into God’s New Covenant, I will supply you with a verse that is more than an “implication” that Israel will gain faith in Christ.

I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. (Zec. 12:10)

Next subject…
As for you claim that we are promised deliverance from ALL wrath, including Satan’s wrath, due to 1 Thess. 5:9, all I really have to say is this. The context of 1 Thess 5:1-11 is the Day of the Lord, and the Day of the Lord is God’s wrath. God’s wrath is the context. To apply this to include Satan’s wrath is very poor interpretation.

Dave

Aletheuo said...

Dave,

Perhaps what I have stated has been improperly explained. I acknowledge Jesus IS the new covenant, just as Isa. 42:6 & 49:8 state.

It is undeniable just Who He is to all mankind. The point that seems to be a point of contention is God states in both Jeremiah 31:31 & 32 and Heb. 8:8-13 that this "new covenant" He will make with the house of Judah and Israel is future tense.

It is a given Jesus is the mediator, however, it is also quite evident that what Paul was speaking of in Hebrews 8 is a yet future fulfillment. There is also the unaddressed issue of the seemingly contradictory statement from both Jeremiah 31:33 and Hebrews 8:10:

"...I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts"

Paul makes the case that the law has been made of none effect in Romans 6,7 Galatians 4 &5 and in Romans 6:14 particularly:

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Then there is a missing link between the new covenant which suercedes the law and makes it of none effect and God stating He will make (future) a new covenant and will write His "laws" on their hearts.

The Church is not Israel and Israel is not the Church. Jesus came here to fulfill the prophecies of Him. He Himself stated in Luke 4:19 & 21 He had fulfilled the scripture of His cominf to preach salvation to the lost sheep of Israel. His coming was pointedly for Israel and only Israel, as He again stated in Mt. 15:24.

Israel had to be offered God's plan and they had to voluntarily reject it so the promise could come to all mankind. That did not occur until Acts 9:15.

I am not here to argue your religious view you call pre-wrath Dave. I do not follow the boxed in doctrines men make, as you have in your religion of pre-wrath.

I am not attempting to argue with you and slice every passage of God's Word into the most finite little piece so I can claim I am right and you are wrong.

I seek only to know what the truth is. Maybe I don't express myself in a manner befitting your means of perception. Maybe it's an effect of the ALS, I don't know. I know one thing and that I seek only the truth as God's Word states it.

Raul wants to make jokes and banter like a rooster in the barn yard. You view the Word of God through a position called pre-wrath which I disagree with. I want only to know the truth as His Word states it.

Men create boxes of beliefs and cage themselves into man made doctrinal stances. They are all religious positions whether they be Catholic, Protestant, Pre-wrath, Mid-trib, Calvinism, Arminiansim, Preterism, Amillenialism ad nauseum.

All I want is the truth and if it falls outside the box people have locked themselves into everyone wants to argue just how their position is the right one and everyone else is wrong.

I tire from the constant arguing and useless positional stances. God said the only religious stance He honors is: "To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."

Sorry if we don't see eye to eye Dave. Forgive me if I have wasted your time. I started out simply asking you to consider something which never was addressed.

It turned into a useless diatribe by Raul and a relentless questioning by you. This is your board, so, I leave it back to you as I move forward seeking the truth elsewhere.

I hope you do not get to witness the wrath you seem so sold on wanting to experience. No need to respond Dave as I will not pass this way again Brother.

In Christ Jesus,

Michael

PWTribune said...

>I tire from the constant arguing and useless positional stances.<


But yet you keep coming here. Don't forget, you're the one that has come here to correct me. I've never come to your board to correct you. Am I supposed to just let you come here and speak things that I disagree with and not defend my belief. Okay. That's what I'll do from now on.

Dave

PWTribune said...

Michael,

And I'm very sorry about your ALS. Hang in there. Even if we disagree about the details, I'm confident that we agree about the person of Christ. See you soon.

Dave

raul delgado said...

Dave,
Obviously this individual has some personal issues. The reason I joked with him was because I had seen how he had behaved towards you before. I wanted to give him a little rope to see what he would do with it. For one thing, he seems very high strung and tempermental. I just knew he would react defensively the way he did. I've met a few people like that in the past and I'm sure you have too. They have an anger problem that they stuggle with. Another thing, he is very close-minded and egotistic. He thinks that only his "private interpretation" of scripture is correct and everyone else is wrong. Someone like that is just unteachable. Also, his thinking is warped and twisted. I think it is almost useless to try and seriously dialog and converse with someone who is not willing to rightfully divide the Word of truth. I was talking to a woman the other day that has been a Jehovah Witness for more than 50 years and as expected she was so close-minded to the truth of scripture(so sad) and instead adamant about her beliefs, just like this guy is. I commend you for your patience with this individual. You explained yourself very clearly and concisely. He just didn't have an "ear to hear"(so sad). Because, it really seems as though he has spent a lot of time studying and reading. And he has a great vocabulary. But, he just isn't employing correct exegesis. However, I will pray for him.

Just some thoughts from the "rooster in the barn yard" :), Raul

Robert said...

I agree with you Raul . Aletheuo (Michael) (all the posts I've read) from him I come to the conclusion is that "he alone has the truth with his private interpretations " . You think your dealing with a JW or a Mormon with how he interprets scripture . I just say "WOW" talk about twisting scripture and mis-applying scripture . Such people are unteachable because they box themselves in as they and only they have the truth and are the exclusive seekers of the "truth" . He seems to keep coming back though !

raul delgado said...

Robert,
Thanks, I appreciate that. I was beginning to think that maybe I was a bit too brutally honest and insensitive. I usually don't interact with folks that way. Because, I really do believe that when we divide the Word of truth, we should do so respectfully. But, still, I am a guest here, and I hope I didn't take too much liberty. If I did and my comments offended anyone, I sincerely apologize to Dave and everyone else. The other day 2 men went to my front door. And when I opened the door, one of them just started reading out of his Bible. I stopped him and asked him if they were Jehovah Witnesses. They mumbled some things to each other and then finally confessed that they were JW's. I told them that I was a Christian. They basically ignored me and kept talking about their beliefs. I tried to be nice to them and tried to get a word in, but they just kept talking away. I finally raised my voice a bit and told them that I thought it was rude of them to do this on my doorstep. They got really offended and said some insulting things as they began to leave. I paused and then suggested that they come back and that we could then have a more serious discussion. But they were furious and just stormed off, still yelling stuff at me. I thought, "Wow, how dare they behave that way right on my doorstep." So, when, I saw how this individual was behaving here, I was quickly reminded of those individuals. Ah, God help us(me) to be more patient.