Sunday, December 16, 2007

The Beast Empire—The Ten Toes After What?: Part 4

Among or After?

Now, a problem arises when we compare Daniel’s vision to the interpretation of the vision. In part three of this Beast Empire study we just saw that the “little horn” will come up among the ten horns, but the explanation of the vision given to Daniel seems to say otherwise.

As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom (fourth kingdom) ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them… (Dan. 7:24)

This is one of the main argument people use to prove that the ten horns are historical. They claim it’s a fact that the above passage teaches that each horn/kingdom will spring up and replace the previous horn, one after the other, and that the “little horn,” or "another" horn, as it's called in the above passage, is not a contemporary with all ten due to the word “after.”

But considering the conclusions I’ve come to in the previous posts I believe there must be another answer for this dilemma. The “after” doesn’t necessarily need to mean that the ten kings are historical kings that are dead and gone or usurped. It seems very reasonable to conclude that the word “after,” and it’s clear timing implication, should not place emphasis upon the “little horn” and his specific place in time. I think the emphasis should be placed upon when he arises to power in relation to the period when the ten kings receive their power. The ten kings arise to power first, and then the “little horn” arises to his place of power after they have risen to power, but while their power still remains, thus the "little horn" comes up among the ten and arises after them. This makes sense considering the ten must already be in power in order to fulfill their purpose—to give the beast their authority, helping him establish his empire and rise to power.

The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour. These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast. (Revelation 17:12-13).

Click here to go to the charts I've created that display what we've covered to this point.

23 comments:

Dyspraxic Fundamentalist said...

Very good.

raul delgado said...

Dave,
Some have speculated that the European Union might be the fulfillment of the prophesied "Revised Roman Empire", and perhaps that might be so. But, what about the possibility that the 10 Member States of the Western European Union might be the prophesied 10 toes/horns/kingdoms?

http://www.weu.int/

Raul

PWTribune said...

Raul,

I was wondering when somebody was going to bring this up. I'm sure you're familiar with the web site of the late Herb Peters. If not, it's:

http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/

It's just one of those things that we can't know for sure. Something about it doesn't seem perfect to me, but I'm not willing to write it off just yet. Only time will tell. I don't mind when others look at what is going on over there and say that this MIGHT be it, but I've run into a few that boldly proclaim that the 70th Week has begun. I don't think this is wise.

There has been no CLEAR beginning to anything, and it seems that the beginning of the 70th Week should have some sort of recognizable effects on the Mid East and Israel, I would think. But I won't even be dogmatic about that.

If we see the Jews being allowed to construct some sort of temple and then reinstate their sacrificial system, well, those are the clear signs to know for sure. I'm sure that you know that the Jews are working on this, and that this is what they desire to do, but when will this happen, and who will confirm the covenant? We'll just have to wait and see and try not to jump to premature conclusions.

raul delgado said...

Dave,
What about this for the 5 brittle as clay and 5 strong as iron:

[Toes of Clay]
Belgium
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Greece
Portugal

[Toes of Iron]
Germany
Italy
Spain
France
United Kingdom

Just speculation, of course...I'll check out that website you mentioned. Raul

PWTribune said...

You haven't hear of Herb? His site is only the most visited prophecy site, or at least it was last time I heard. He even passed up good ol' Todd Strandberg at "Rapture Ready."

Dyspraxic Fundamentalist said...

BW Newton argued that the two legs of iron represented the eastern and western wings of the Roman Empire. He thus concluded that five of the toes must be western and five of them easter.

That would rule out them all being European countries (though Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, and Turkey if she joins would count as eastern).

Of course, BW Newton's former mentor and later opponent, JN Darby held that all the ten kingdoms were western, arguing that the eastern countries were allies of Gog (the king of the north), and therefore opponents of the Beast Kingdom.

Every Blessing in Christ

Matthew

PWTribune said...

Dyspraxic Fundy,

>He thus concluded that five of the toes must be western and five of them easter.<

That's interesting. Thanks. If there's one thing about me that is lacking (and I'm sure there couldn't be more than one thing!) it's that I don't really read much from other authors so I don't know the thoughts of everyone else, so I appreciate hearing them when someone posts them.

But on the other hand, I specifically try not to read too much about theology because I want to come to my own conclusions without being persuaded by others. I may lack something in details at times, but it's fun to make my own findings only to find that others also believe the same thing.

raul delgado said...

Dave,
I think I visited that website once before? Is that where you are "smackbucket". I haven't checked it out yet, but I will shortly.

raul delgado said...

Matthew,
I too have heard that theory about the legs representing the Eastern and Western halves of the Roman Empire and thus would seem to imply that the 5 toes of clay would have to be countries from the Eastern region of Europe or perhaps, middle-eastern countries (underdeveloped/brittle) and the 5 toes of Iron, countries from Western Europe (industrialized/strong). However, I see a problem with this. It seems to me that the legs of Iron together represent the Roman Empire as one entity, strong and united. So, then, the 10 horns/toes/countries would come from the former Empire, not from the weak and divided one. What do you guys think?

Dyspraxic Fundamentalist said...

Raul, both feet are of iron and clay.

If they do include both east and west, the distinction between the two is not represented in the two materials.

God Bless

Matthew

PWTribune said...

Yep, Raul. Smackbucket is yours truly. And dyspraxic fundamentalist, I wish you would stop writing such loooong comments! :)

raul delgado said...

Matthew,

You said, "Raul, both feet are of iron and clay."

Yes, I agree, they are shown as mixed, not one foot/toes soley Iron and the other foot/toes soley clay. They are combined, but not completely fused together. So, again, it seems to me that which ever countries it might be, they will certainly be in some kind of an alliance, but they will be different and distinct. Ok, maybe I'm analyzing this too much. I'm seeing a Podiatrist on Friday, so maybe I have that in mind. :)

The Orange Mailman said...

Matthew-

It's nice to see someone else who is familiar with B.W. Newton. He's got some great stuff. I saw the link to Sovereign Grace on your site. I wondered just how much you had read.

The one book that explores that theme of the eastern and western legs of the empire being included in the final ten nations is Daniel's Great Prophecy by Nathaniel West. Good luck trying to find it though.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

Dyspraxic Fundamentalist said...

OM, I have read about ten books by BW Newton. I dont agree with everything he wrote and I dont like his Reformed Puritan slant.

I have'nt read his grand opus 'Thoughts on the Apocalypse'. I have read JN Darby's review of that book. Darby's review of the book is incredible. He seems to find a fault in practically every sentence Newton wrote.

What I find really interesting is that although the Pre-Trib people take their view of the rapture from Darby and reject Newton's Post-Tribulationalism, they follow a lot of the prophetic details of Newton that Darby rejected. For instance Darby held Babylon in Rev 17 was Rome, while Newton held Babylon would be rebuilt. It seems like the majority of Dispensationalists seem to be opting for Newton's view and abandoning Darby's.

Every Blessing in Christ

Matthew

Anonymous said...

In my mind, the central dilemma regarding the image of Dan. 2 is reconciling why Daniel states there are four kingdoms, and yet there are five elements to harmonize.

The central question becomes not only what the fourth kingdom (legs of iron? feet and toes of iron and clay? Both?) specifically represents, but why one is given precedent over the other and what makes it distinctive.

It appears this dilemma attempting to be resolved when Dan. 7:23 states "the fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom."

If the fourth beast represents the fourth kingdom, then does this fourth beast represent the legs of iron or the feet and toes of iron and clay?

Personally I believe the fourth beast corresponds to the feet and toes of iron and clay. But then this begs the question, "Why does Daniel seemingly ignore the kingdom represented in the legs of iron?"

PWTribune said...

"In my mind, the central dilemma regarding the image of Dan. 2 is reconciling why Daniel states there are four kingdoms, and yet there are five elements to harmonize."

I understand the difficulty of this completely. I harmonize this by what I mentioned in my previous post (part 3). Daniel 7 also mentions that they are four beasts, rather than five. BUT IF the fifth is an extension of some sorts of the fourth it makes sense that only four are mentioned considering the fifth IS the fourth. Therefore there is not REALLY five if we consider the fourth and fifth as similar.

It is very clear to me that there is a still future beast empire, and that fact combined with my above thought seem to make it very plausible. Do you "buy" this, or does it at least make it possible for you?

Dave

Anonymous said...

Dave,

I am in complete agreement with you on two counts: 1) The fourth beast represents the "fifth" kingdom (as represented in the feet and toes of iron and clay. 2) The key to understanding when this fourth beast rises to power is centered around "when" the ten kings reign together "one hour" (Rev. 17:12) with the beast.

However, I think where we disagree is in the timing of when this "one hour" commences.

From what I gather you believe when the "little (11th)horn" comes up among the ten that this signals the aforementioned "hour", and the fourth beast rises to power as the fifth kingdom at the midpoint of the 70th Week. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

The problem as I see it is that when the this 11th horn rises to power after the ten, it seems as if there is some sort of disagreement (as evidenced by the three horns being plucked up by the roots) among the ten kings. Therefore, I don't believe the "hour" in question begins when the little horn comes up among the ten in Dan. 7:8.

Ironically, my own thoughts on when this "hour" begins correspond to your own (brilliant by the way) study concerning the "hour" in Rev. 3:10.

PWTribune said...

Anonymous said:

"The problem as I see it is that when the this 11th horn rises to power after the ten, it seems as if there is some sort of disagreement (as evidenced by the three horns being plucked up by the roots) among the ten kings. Therefore, I don't believe the "hour" in question begins when the little horn comes up among the ten in Dan. 7:8."

I'm not sure I'm following you. WHY don't you think the little horn comes up at the midpoint? It sounds like you're saying that he comes up at the day of the Lord.

And are you the same anonymous that posted a few times ago above? I can't keep track of who I'm speaking to without some sort of name, BUT you must be smart, after all, you mentioned my 3:10 piece as brilliant. :) But seriously, thanks.

Please try to explain more, if you can, so that I can follow you better.

Dave

Anonymous said...

I believe the little horn of Dan. 7:8 represents the Antichrist's first rise to power with the covenant at the beginning of the 70th Week. I also believe this is the rider of the white horse, beast of Rev. 13, man of sin...etc.

I do not believe the "little horn" of Dan. 7:8 and fourth beast of Dan. 7:7 represent the same "exact" thing. While I would agree that both the "little horn" and fourth beast are both directly connected to the Antichrist, I believe the fourth beast of Dan. 7:7 represents a peculiarly "unique" rise to power of the Antichrist either just before/at/or after the Day of the Lord begins.

Unique in that I believe this is when the Antichrist is "given" the kingdom (of "feet and toes of iron and clay) by the ten kings as represented in Rev. 17:17. (Note how there is clear "agreement" among the ten kings, as opposed to Dan. 7:8 (when three are plucked up by the roots).

Of course you and I both know that the 70th week and Day of the Lord begin at two different times.

Little horn of Dan. 7:8 - Begins 70th Week.

Fourth Beast of Dan. 7:7 - Near, at, or perhaps after the beginning of DOL.

In 2 Thess. 2 we are told of three unique manifestations of the Antichrist. I believe that each of the three are clearly represented in the chapter:

1) "man of sin" - Antichrist at beginning of 70th Week. (1st seal of Rev. 6:2, also beast of Rev. 13:1-2 and little horn of Dan. 7:8)

2) "son of perdition" - Antichrist at midpoint. (fourth seal of Rev. 6:8, also beast of Rev. 17:3 and "stout" horn of Dan. 7:20

3) "that Wicked" - Antichrist at Day of the Lord (post 6th seal, also beast of Dan. 7:7 and little horn of Dan. 8:9.

Of course, as pre-wrather's, we won't be around for this final manifestation of the AC at the Day of the Lord.

-Mike

PWTribune said...

Mike,

There's some details that you mentioned that I don't agree with, but sometimes we just can't be sticklers about details. I'm just glad you're a pre-wrather! And thanks for dropping by.

Dave

The Orange Mailman said...

Matthew-

Yeah, good luck trying to find "Thoughts on the Apocalypse" as well. I do have it though, thanks to my wife. (Nyuck, Nyuck, Nyuck.)

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

Dyspraxic Fundamentalist said...

Orange Mailman, you need to read JN Darby's critique of 'Thoughts on the Apocalypse'.

It is the most painstaking book review in the history of theological literature.

God Bless

Matthew

PWTribune said...

Man, Matthew. You're a glutton for punishment!