Monday, August 20, 2007

A Question From a Reader

Raul asked:

Daniel 11:36(NKJV) states "Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done." Now, I've understood this to mean that the Anti-Christ will be successful until the Lord's wrath is complete. Is that correct or it is referring to Satan's/Anti-Christ's wrath during the Great Tribulation period? But, again, if it does mean the Lord's wrath, then how can the A/C be successful until the end of the Lord's wrath if the A/C is only allotted 1260 days and the Lord's wrath extends a bit longer to 1290 days? So, in other words, how can the A/C be successful until the end of the Lord's wrath, if his time is up at 1260 days?

Here’s the verse in the NASB, Raul:

Then the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will speak monstrous things against the God of gods; and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done. (Daniel 11:36 NASB)

The context of the entire verse is what the Antichrist will do, not what God will do. Notice that it starts out speaking of the “monstrous” things he will accomplish and finishes with the fact that “what has been decreed will be done.” Because of this context I don’t think that it would make sense within the structure of the verse to throw in a mention of God’s indignation unless the indignation is said to be God’s. It wouldn’t flow or have any clarity.

Think about your question. It’s not making sense to you that the Antichrist could be successful, or could “prosper,” during the time of the Day of the Lord’s wrath. I think there’s a reason that it’s not making sense to you. I think you’ve answered you own question! It’s not possible.

This is one of the reasons that the pre-wrath position sees the Antichrist as being "rendered useless" when the Day of the Lord begins after the sixth seal sometime during the final half of the 70th Week. Certainly he will be around for the complete 1260 days, but during the final portion of this time he will have limited strength due to the trumpets and bowls of God's wrath.

Connected to this is why I, and the pre-wrath position, sees Matthew 24:22 teaching that the actual Great Tribulation where the Church is persecuted will be “cut short.”

Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. (Matthew 24:22)

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Great Tribulation lasts for 1260 days, or 3.5 years. It’s an assumption based on the verses that describe the Antichrist’s time of activity as being 1260 days. I think that this “cutting short” of the Great Tribulation, as mentioned by Jesus, corresponds to the time-frame you’re questioning. The Antichrist will be successful until his (the Antichrist's) indignation is completed (Daniel 11:36), then Christ will cut short the Great Tribulation by His coming (Matthew 24:22), He will gather the elect (Matthew 24:31) and the Day of the Lord’s wrath will begin (Joel 2:31; Matthew 24:37-39; Rev. 6:12-17/8:1). When Jesus “cuts short” the Great Trib after the opening of the sixth seal the Antichrist will no longer be “successful.” I hope this helps.


Augustine said...

Hmm, Revelation 13:5 states that the beast is given absolute power for 42 months or 1260 days but Christ comes at least 5 months before the 42 months. How interesting, the beast doesn't have 42 months or 1260 days of absolute power after all. The PreWrath position seems to be making Revelation 13:5 the butt of jokes.

PWTribune said...

The butt of jokes? Hmmm, at least we don't put words into God's mouth. It says he has "Absolute power," does it?

Revelation 13:5 (New American Standard Bible)

There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.

"Authority to act" in no way implies "absolute power."

Augustine said...

Alright, if 'authority to act' doesn't imply 'absolute power'; what does it implies?

What's the point of Christ coming 5 months before the end of the 42 months if the the authority of beast is still persistent.

He even goes on to kill the two witnesses. And what are the two witnesses going to witness until the end of the 42 months when the beast kills them since Christ had already come and the whole saw Him.

Isn't it inanity, given that the two witnesses doing their rounds while at the same time the world is looking at Christ hovering in mid-air for 5 months? If Christ had come, what is there witness? His presence itself attests to His power and glory.

Following your premise, the beast seems to have lost his 'authority to act' after killing the two witnesses as the killings coincide with the end of the 42 months given to him to act.

What's the reason for him lose his authority? He didn't lose it when Christ came 5 months earlier, so why now?

If it's not 'absolute power' for 42 months for him to act without restriction, it appears that he still has 'authority to act' by commanding his troops to battle it out in Armageddon, 30 days beyond the 42 months which you alleged has nothing to do with 'absolute power'.

My thinking is the beast has 42 months of authority to act without restriction simply because Christ hadn't come within that particular period, therefore, there's no resistance to what he perpetrates.

His time of 42 months ends due to the coming of Christ. I would say Christ's coming is within the 30 days period rather than within the 42 months.

BTW, I do enjoy reading this blog tho' I don't with some of the stuff written.

PWTribune said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
PWTribune said...

>>Isn't it inanity, given that the two witnesses doing their rounds while at the same time the world is looking at Christ hovering in mid-air for 5 months?<<

No pre-wrather has ever said this, nor do we believe or teach it.

>>it appears that he still has 'authority to act' by commanding his troops to battle it out in Armageddon, 30 days beyond the 42 months which you alleged has nothing to do with 'absolute power'.<<

So now he has absolute power for LONGER than 42 months? You MUST be saying that because you appear to also believe that Christ comes after the 42 months, as displayed by the next comment.

>>I would say Christ's coming is within the 30 days period rather than within the 42 months.<<

Augustine said...

No? That's not what PreWrath teach? I understand that you teach that the timing of the two witnesses is during the second period of 42 months. You also teach that Christ will come at least 5 months before the end of the 42 months.

This will put Christ and the two witnesses on earth for at least 5 months at the same period of time. If Christ is not hovering in mid-air while the two witnesses do their rounds for the remaining of the 5 months, He must be standing on the Mount of Olives so that every eye will see Him. Or else, where will He be for the duration of the 5 months?

What baffles me is why the two witnesses still need to do their rounds when the main event of the parausia had already transpired and every eye saw Him? What's even more baffling is after the beast kills them, the inhabitants of the earth are deeply shaken when they see them coming alive after 3 days and are taken-up into heaven.

If Christ had come 5 months earlier before this phenomenon occurs, I don't see why a phenomenon of such insignificant magnitude or scale compared to the parausia of Christ they saw earlier, would even raise an eyebrown.

Please enlighten me regarding the position of Christ after His coming based on the PreWrath theory.

I think the beast must be granted 42 months to act with authority without any constrain of interference or any sort as decreed in Revelation 13:5. Otherwise, what had been decreed will not be fulfilled accordingly and the prophecy would fail.

After the 42 months period granted for the beast to act comes to an end, the following period of 30 days is when Christ will come. Reason is because no one knows the exact day when Christ will come and therefore, the 42 months period has been decreed as definate for the beast to act.

Each day Christ doesn't come in the 30-day period is one day bonus for the beast to perpetrate his evil. But Christ will come within this 30-day period and put an end to the beast's authority to act, otherwise if this goes beyond, ultimately, no flesh on earth will survive.

PWTribune said...

Sorry you're baffled. :)

Augustine said...

No need to say sorry. Indeed, I'm the one who must apologize for intruding on your coffee break. Before I leave, consider these:-

1. I do agree with you that nowhere in the says that the great tribulation is 1260 days. However, Daniel 12:11 states; "From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days."

This verse states clearly the point where the great tribulation begins and ends. There will 1290 days, summing up God's wrath and Satan's wrath as you proposed.

The 1260 days are decreed to be given to the beast as a definite period to act with authority or absolute power, without any divine intervention by Christ to 'render him useless'.

2. Think, if the beast is 'rendered useless' 5 months before the end of the 1260 days period, will he then be able to go on and kill the two witnesses of God?

3. Think, if the parousia has occured 5 months before the end of the 1260 days period, is there good enough a reason for them to continue witnessing, given that every eye in the world had borne witness to the testimony of Christ's deity by His power and glory in resurrecting and rapturing His elect?

Enjoy sipping your coffee.

I shall not perturb you henceforth.

Selamat tinggal.

PWTribune said...

Believe me, I understand where you're coming from. I don't have a real problem with post-trib, but I still think pre-wrath has more to offer.

Maybe someday I'll muster up the motivation to discuss it with you, but my coffee break has been a much needed break. Maybe I'll get out of my end-times debating burnout one of these days, but after a decade of people emailing me pretty regularly to tell me I'm wrong, and then defending it, I just don't feel the desire anymore. I'm sure you understand.

Augustine said...

Yes, I appreciate that. I do understand that your coffee break is much warranted, which was why I had to apologize as I felt I was intruding. I could sense your burnout and the lack of desire from the 2 liners of your replies.

When I see your posting again in future, I will try to discuss with you some of the issues.

Before I exit, I would like you to ponder upon what Christ said: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..."

The word 'after' connotes a position that has come to pass or has ended.

Does that mean the tribulation has ended even before the darkening of the constellation preceding the parousia of Christ?

Or was Christ referring to His coming as after the tribulation period of 1,260 days decreed for the beast to act with authority had ended?

The word 'after' surely must be reflecting a point in time with great significance.

Hope to discuss with you some of this issues one of these days when you are ready.

Till then, take care.

Johor Bahru, Malaysia.

PWTribune said...

People usually spout off something like, "You know you're wrong so you're acting like a coward and not answering!" So thanks for understanding. I usually answer the easy questions that are simple pre-trib issues that can be "solved" in a paragraph or two, but your question can only be addressed by MORE study and potentially endless debate down many different avenues.

Tell you what, IF I ever get the inkling to start this blog up again, I'll create a post about post-trib and address your questions the best that I can. But to be honest, if THE end ever truly begins I will probably still say I think pre-wrath is what will go down, but I will also be honest enough to also say that there are a few issues I have with it, and that people should be ready for enduring the complete 42 + months just in case.

See, I'm not a complete hard-nose.