Wednesday, March 01, 2006

The “Tribulation” Challenge

Dear pre-trib believer,

Can you find anything within the Bible that teaches that there is a seven year “Tribulation?”

Sincerely,

Dave

PS There will be at least two follow-ups to this topic.

3 comments:

glen walling said...

i've been having a debate with a pretribber that would leave you gobsmacked
he believes the multitude in rev 7 is a pretrib rapture!!
even most pretribbers know that isn't the case

here it is

GLEN (me)
i actually wanted pretribbers to answer this question but so far it seems none have turned up!!!!!!

MARK
What do you want? Are you willing to listen?

I can answer this question easily.

There are three events in this question, The Coming of our Lord, the Rapture, and the Resurrection.

The Coming of the Lord and the Rapture are the same event. The events of the Matt 24 sign in the sky and Rev 6 sixth seal and Eze 38 Magog War align themselves around the sixth seal. At this same time a great multitude arrives in heaven, from every tribe, tongue, all worshipping Jesus with white robes cleansed by Jesus blood. Sounds like the church to me.

The Resurrection occurs later.


GLEN
the 2nd coming is at the 6th seal(unknown day) which is well into the last 42 month tribulation


MARK
How many times do I need to explain that the seals occur before the Tribulation and are not part of the Tribulation?

The tribulation is God's wrath on those who dwell on the earth and the sentence of God's judgment is contained within the scroll. Only Jesus is worthy to unseal the scroll and not until the scroll is opened can the sentence been read. This is why there is silence in heaven when the seventh seal is removed, the judgment can be clearly seen by all.

The seals are not part of the judgment thus not part of the Tribulation.



GLEN
the coming, rapture, and resurrection are all the same day

you are right about the 6th seal and matthew it is the church, but it's NOT pretrib

and the resurrection happens before the rapture

*and the dead in Christ will rise first*(resurrection). 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

do you disagree with the above scripture?



GLEN
the seals contain the presecution of the anrichrist
after this the resurrectuion in rev 7
THEN the judgment of God
the tribulation of saints IS NOT THE SAME THING AS GODS JUDGMENT

AOD comes first with persecution (this is not Gods judgment)

followed by christs coming, then the 7th seal is opened


MARK
No, but I disagree with you.

glen walling said...

MARK
The Resurrection is at the end of the Lord's Day, as seen in this verse:

Rev 20:13 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them, and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds"




GLEN
that is not the first resurrection, it's the resurrection of the wicked (rev 20)

what about the multitude who come out of GREAT TRIBULATION in rev 7?

are they not resurrected?

if the dead in christ rise first that is a resurrection agreed?


GLEN
read matthew 24 carefully and compare them to the seals
jesus said there would be birthpains
1.false christs (1st seal)
2.war (2nd seal)
3.famine (3rd seal)
4.pestilence etc (4th seal)
5.later the abomination of desolation and tribulation (5th seal)
6.then after that tribulation, the sun,moon and stars - (6th seal)
then gathering of the elect (multitiude in rev 7 before Gods throne)
following this Gods wrath begins with the trumpets
the first trumpet mirrors what jesus said about lot leaving sodom (fire from heaven)
too many parallels to be a coincidence


MARK
Your chronology is pure fantasy.

The Day of the Lord is the Tribulation.

It starts with the opening of the scroll.

Joel 2:30-31 "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire and columns of smoke. The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood. BEFORE the great and awesome day of the LORD comes."

When does this line up with Revelation?

The Sixth seal, just prior to the start of the Tribulation.

GLEN

mark
which part of this don't you understand?

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of *GREAT TRIBULATION*, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

does that look pretrib to you?

and when is this multitude seen in heaven?

AFTER the trib (jesus clearly said unequalled tribulation) of those days, the sun, moon, stars, (6th seal) then the multitude in heaven
how is that before the tribulation?





GLEN
you just said the day of the lord starts with the opening of the scroll
wrong it starts after the opening of the 6th seal

you also ignore the fact that the abomination of desolation comes before the day of the lord

the AOD is already there beofre the celestial signs

are you saying they are 2 different tribulations?

jesus clearly said the greatest distress comes BEFORE the signs of the 6th seal
is that true or not?
great tribulation is always a reference to the saints not the unbelievers
"those who dwell on the earth" only applies to unbelievers and is apparent after the resurrection/rapture in rev 7

the debate continues
it's actually quite humorous but very frustrating as well!!!

glen walling said...

what made me laugh is when he quoted the 2nd resurrection in rev 20 as being the first one
then he said the day of lord starts with the opening of the scroll, then said it starts at the 6th seal!!!

and keeps saying the day of the lord is the start of the tribulation

*bangs head against the wall*