tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-203873352024-03-19T02:42:25.373-05:00The Pre-wrath TribunePWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.comBlogger120125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20387335.post-82690771226655401012008-02-10T13:56:00.001-06:002009-03-10T14:54:24.259-05:00Extended Coffee Break<div style="text-align: justify;">It’s official. My desire to focus on the study of end things is dwindling, and I think it’s time a take a break until I have true motivation that drives me to write out of correct motives rather than feeling motivated to write out of duty to keep my readers happy. It’s been fun to back here for the past year after a year break due to the same reasons, but while my desire for God’s word is never simply focused on end times, it is cyclical, meaning there are times when I have drive to focus on certain aspects of truth more than others.<br /><br />I would never say that the study of prophecy is all about timing, maps and the rapture, and that it has nothing to do with knowing God. In fact, I try to make sure that truth about God, Himself, is included within this blog and that prophecy <span style="font-style: italic;">is</span> shown to be an aspect of God’s character, and that understanding prophetic truth is most definitely applicable in the here and now and <span style="font-style: italic;">is</span> actually a part of communion with Him.<br /><br />But I feel like I’m being led to put it on the shelf for the time being and to simply spend quality time knowing Him and seeking scripture more deeply to apply to my daily life and to those around me without spending so much time pondering the future and things to write about concerning it.<br /><br />Some feel an urgency to continue to write about news events and prophetic topics because of their belief that the WEU is the beast empire, that a certain individual is the Antichrist and that the final week of Daniel has begun. While I would never say that this scenario is untrue, I will say that at this point in time it is only speculation, one should not be dogmatic about it and we can’t know for sure until <span style="font-style: italic;">clear, undeniable</span> signs take place. If these signs take place, believe me, I will be back with a vengeance.<br /><br />This break of mine may last a month, or it may last a year. I don’t know, and only time will tell, but I think that there’s enough content here for new readers to ponder as they accidentally drop by or are directed here by you, my regular reader. I hope I haven’t disappointed too many of you, and I hope I’m articulating this so that you understand my perspective.<br /><br />Thanks for all of your great comments, questions and thoughts over the last year! And thanks even to those of you that disagree with me. Life would be boring without disagreements or issues to wrestle with. And feel free to continue to make comments or to ask questions because I’m certain that I will still keep up that portion of the Tribune during my little sabbatical.<br /><br />Dave<br /><br /></div>PWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.com28tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20387335.post-47151868515999202032008-02-05T22:05:00.000-06:002008-02-05T22:16:32.687-06:00New Pre-wrath Novel<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjvDShSKqR-mUbE6Ay8thwhrsfJbZcQAF_rIWF3jsVVR_AhIP__MLnbZLE9IuN1gzX_fEO73FEiVlNsPrmHV2g51WpuhamwHkUN5Ui1slV5WasgKLQxC1aUK20xh7R_ESHlN97h_g/s1600-h/Picture-1.jpg"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer;" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjvDShSKqR-mUbE6Ay8thwhrsfJbZcQAF_rIWF3jsVVR_AhIP__MLnbZLE9IuN1gzX_fEO73FEiVlNsPrmHV2g51WpuhamwHkUN5Ui1slV5WasgKLQxC1aUK20xh7R_ESHlN97h_g/s320/Picture-1.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5163716286563804610" border="0" /></a><br /><br /><br /><br /><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /><br /><br />Robert Van Kampen's daughter, Kristen Wisen, has written an end-times novel. I have not read it, so I can't tell you if it's good, but I'm willing to bet that it is. You may read a little about <a href="http://www.kristenwisen.com/">Kristen and her book here. </a><br /></div>PWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.com4tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20387335.post-45117802517282073852008-02-05T14:11:00.001-06:002008-02-05T14:11:48.815-06:00Matthew 24 Isn't Literal?<div style="text-align: justify;">I am confident that Matthew 24 is a black and white, meat and potatoes passage that is unlike other prophetic passages given to us by old and new testament prophets. Those that have been influenced by Amillennialism and Postmillennialism have told us repeatedly that apocalyptic imagery isn’t fulfilled in any sort of literal fashion due to the nature of it, but I say that this is missing a very important fact.<br /><br />Matthew 24 is not apocalyptic imagery! Other prophecies have been given to us by a prophet that either had a dream or a vision, or they were moved by the Spirit within them. These prophets didn’t understand much of what they were seeing and had to do their best to describe these events to us. I’m sure that this was especially difficult when we consider that they were not only seeing symbolic dreams and visions (leopard beasts, etc), but some, such as John, were seeing things that involved futuristic qualities that they couldn’t begin to fathom.<br /><br />But Jesus was not speaking from a dream or a vision when He spoke to His disciples on the Mount of Olives. He was not interpreting what He didn’t understand, and He was not trying to communicate something to His followers that was given to Him in symbolic form. He simply told them a story of what was going to happen because He knew the story firsthand from His Father. He had the inside scoop.<br /><br />I think we can put our minds at ease and know that Matthew 24 is a simple story that displays real events that will literally take place in the future. We don’t need to be dogmatic about how every detail will take place, but I think it’s safe to say that there will be an abomination of desolation, we will be persecuted and He will come to rescue us after the signs in the sun, moon and stars indicate that He is on His way to deal out retribution to His enemies.<br /><br /><br /></div>PWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.com12tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20387335.post-5853841447305911432008-01-23T17:30:00.000-06:002008-01-29T20:35:04.415-06:00The Beast Empire—More "Was" and "Is" Dilemmas: Part 8<div style="text-align: justify;">Continuing from the last post, but remaining within the same subject, we must face another dilemma. It's very clear that the king of Rome was a contemporary of John’s and that this king was the king that the angel described to John as the king that “is.” But if we say that the beast that “was, and is not and will come” is <span style="font-style: italic;">also</span> spoken of from the perspective of John we have the future beast, or Antichrist, as one that lived <span style="font-style: italic;">before</span> John and was dead during John’s life. This king would then be alive once again sometime in the future during the 70th Week.<br /><br />Many teach this and conclude that Antiochus Epiphanes from the second century BC (167-164), who caused great terror to the Jews only to come to his ruin during the Maccabean revolt, is the beast that will come. I cannot say that this is impossible, or that some other historical figure couldn't be a possible candidate, but I think that it's unlikely.<br /><br />This Antiochus Epiphanes idea brings us back to square one, and is similar to the problem I have with thinking that the world will be amazed at an empire being reborn. This once again causes me to wonder how the whole world will be amazed at someone coming back from the dead that has been dead for over 2000 years. How on God’s green earth would one be able to convince the world that he used to be Antiochus Epiphanes or any other former dead person?! He would be a laughing stock. At the very least he would be considered a quack and a possible date for Shirley McClain! There’s no way that I can see that the beast could be able to pull this off in a way that could convince the world to follow and worship him. Even if we view the beast as strictly the beast that comes from the abyss in a spirit form, and not the man/Antichrist, how could it be conveyed to the masses that he “was” at one time, ie. was dead or locked in the abyss and is once again alive and free from the abyss? Who would believe it enough to be amazed, and who would care besides a few nutty conspiracy-minded folks that are likely to get sucked into any crazy cult that wanders their way?<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">If the Beast is Viewed From the Perspective of Those Alive During the 70th Week </span><br /><br />If we view the beast that "was, is not and will come" from the perspective, or time period, of those that are alive in the 70th week there are once again problems if we <span style="font-style: italic;">also</span> conclude that the beast is not only a king, but an empire, as well. If the beast that "was" is viewed from the perspective of those living in the 70th Week, and is viewed as an empire, and that empire was Rome, then we have a seventh, <span style="font-style: italic;">unnamed</span>, head in the beast system.<br /><br />It's clear that the beast that "was, is not and will come" is the eighth <span style="font-style: italic;">and</span> one of the seven. If it's one of the seven, and is Rome, it must be the sixth <span style="font-style: italic;">and</span> eighth empire. So who is the seventh, then? Muhammed’s empire? Hitler’s empire? And why would the scripture be so kind to answer itself by giving us all of the names of the beast empires of those previous six empires so that we can know who each head is (Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Medo/Persian, Grecian, Roman) but briefly pass by the seventh and give absolutely no indication as to who it is. This just doesn't seem plausible or complete to me when I consider the great details that have been provided for us. Plus, it gives leeway for just about anything to be possible.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">But…</span><br /><br />But if a <span style="font-style: italic;">man</span> (not an empire) <span style="font-style: italic;">during</span> the 70th Week was killed and revived before the eyes of the world, well, that would be amazing and would cause true beast worship! I know, some of you are rolling your eyes, and some of you are wondering why I’m being inconsistent in my interpretation. How can I say that the king that “was, is not and will come” is <span style="font-style: italic;">not</span> viewed from John’s perspective and lifetime period when only a few verses away the king of Rome <span style="font-style: italic;">was</span> viewed from John’s perspective? It sounds like very inconsistent hermeneutics.<br /><br />But I think that this post, and the last post, has become long and laborious enough for the average reader. I have to wonder if any of you were even able to make it to this point without placing a gun to your head to put a stop to my miserable, mind numbing confusion! So I will once again have to continue this at another time. Baby steps, my detailed prophecy friend, baby steps. Stay tuned.</div>PWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.com29tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20387335.post-70282903115519569162008-01-23T10:20:00.000-06:002008-01-24T06:54:52.766-06:00The Beast Empire—Was the Beast “Was” or “Is?”: Part 7<div style="text-align: justify;">As I was halfway through writing this piece I became bothered by the realization that unless you are very familiar with this topic this entry (and the next one) may be getting a bit hard to follow as I chase the prophetic rabbit down many different trails, thus I thought the ridiculous title of this entry was appropriate. I try to keep this blog fairly simple so that those new to prophetic study can learn the basics without feeling bogged down, but at times I just need to veer from the path of simplicity. I’ve done my best to write this Beast Empire study in a simple manner so that all can follow, but I understand if you’re starting to see blurry. Hang in there, and feel free to ask questions. It seems that it’s usually only the very studied individuals that leave comments or questions, but don’t let that intimidate you. If you don’t understand something, just ask.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">Are the Heads Empires Also?</span><br /><br />Revelation 17:8<br />The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.<br /><br />Some will claim that the beast that “was, is not, and will come” is an empire that fell and will be revived. First, this hardly seems like something that would cause all the people to “wonder” as it says in verse eight. What is so amazing about a former empire regaining its strength? Who would care? We saw the Soviet Union fall, and as we seem to see Russia growing in strength to the point that there is a great possibility that it will regain its oppressive nature. If this happens will the whole world say, “Who is like the Soviet Union? Who can make war with it? I will worship the Soviet Union because it was not and now is! (Rev. 13)” This seem more than an unlikely stretch to me.<br /><br />Secondly, while Daniel’s vision clearly indicated that the four beasts and the individual statue parts could be viewed as either empires or as individual leaders of those empires, Revelation doesn’t seem to give this leeway. In verse ten of chapter seventeen the interpretation of the seven heads is said to be seven <span style="font-style: italic;">kings</span>, and I think there's a reason why only kings are specified rather than kings <span style="font-style: italic;">and</span> empires.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">If the Beast is Viewed From the Perspective of John </span><br /><br />An observant individual commented on one of my previous posts that it seemed confusing that John saw one of the heads as Rome and that he saw it as the head that “was,” meaning that it was in existence during the life of John. But now we have John claiming that he saw a beast that “is <span style="font-style: italic;">not</span>!” Here is his question:<br /><br />“He [the beast] was, and is not and will come. Seemingly ‘is not’ means not present or here (from John's perspective). Did John not say that ‘one is’? Was not ROME the sixth beast empire? Is not the Roman empire to revive as the seventh? What does "and is not" mean from John's time-frame?”<br /><br />This is one of the reasons why, three paragraphs previous to this, I mentioned that John does not seem to indicate that the beast heads are kings <span style="font-style: italic;">and</span> empires as Daniel did in his visions. John very clearly wrote that the heads were <span style="font-style: italic;">kings</span>, and I can find nothing in his text that indicates that the heads can flip flop back and forth in their meaning from kings to empires as they did in the book of Daniel. And the only reason that I can see for people concluding this in their interpretation is because they simply assume it is the case because the vision in Daniel worked in this fashion.<br /><br />Now, because I see John's vision is specifically focusing in on the individual kings, and not the empires, John wrote that the <span style="font-style: italic;">king</span> of Rome was in existence in his (John's) lifetime. He did not say that <span style="font-style: italic;">Rome</span> was in existence during his period. Therefore there is no contradiction in saying that the <span style="font-style: italic;">king </span><span>(of Rome)</span><span style="font-style: italic;"> “is,”</span> as John’s contemporary, and that the king of the future (revived Rome) “is <span style="font-style: italic;">not</span>” during John’s lifetime. The contradiction is only valid if we interpret the heads as empires because Rome could not be present <span style="font-style: italic;">and</span> not present at the same time of John’s existence if the beast is viewed from John’s perspective, and from his point in time. But then again, there might be <span style="font-style: italic;">other</span> problems if we view this "was, is and will come" beast from John's time perspective! Could I be <span style="font-style: italic;">more</span> difficult?<br /><br />In the next post I will address more "was" and "is" dilemmas, and hopefully I will at least <span style="font-style: italic;">begin</span> to write my final conclusions about this beast and explain what I believe is the best interpretation of the topic in question.<br /><br /><br /><br /></div>PWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.com12tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20387335.post-71135579409589135162008-01-20T16:46:00.000-06:002008-01-29T23:11:15.948-06:00God is Finished With Israel?<div style="text-align: justify;">Many people try to claim that God is through with the literal nation of Israel. They claim that followers of Christ have replaced them. I believe there are many serious problems with this idea. I recently had a friendly conversation with a preterist that lets me hunt his land. He made a few bold claims, and then lumped everyone that believed that Israel had a future with God into a dispensational pre-tribber category. I just <span style="font-style: italic;">had</span> to ask him a few questions! Below is a fairly simple solution that can be used if you run into the same situation.<br /><br />Jer. 31:37<br />Only <span style="font-style: italic;">if</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> </span>the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done.<br /><br />I brought this passage up to my preterist friend, and of course he quickly reminded me that we are the descendants of Israel, and that the passage is saying that God will never reject <span style="font-style: italic;">us</span>.<br /><br />But to apply Christians to this passage is simply torturing the text due to presuppositions. Yes, I understand that we are Abraham's descendants by faith, but, the last portion of this passage says, "because of all <span style="font-style: italic;">they</span> have done."<br /><br />The "they" is clearly the literal and physical nation Israel because that is who is being spoken to and about in the passage. Because of this it seems impossible to claim that the descendants being spoken of could be us. If it were, the verse would be saying this:<br /><br />"Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the CHRISTIANS because of all that the JEWS have done."<br /><br />Why would He reject <span style="font-style: italic;">any </span>Christian for what Jews have done? This makes absolutely no sense! Problem solved, my preterist friend.<br /><br /></div>PWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.com17tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20387335.post-84615847231394669432008-01-15T23:54:00.000-06:002008-01-24T06:22:40.004-06:00The Beast Empire—A Visual of the Beast That Will Come<div style="text-align: justify;"><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjfxBzVBWyfh1D9FgouDSZNYhR1H5i1BPngKWN94NGfBI60A52Wk25PjGL98wQqHQ5rTUY69_n10KFEvmLVog2G0LWSRYsJmM5eNko2Jm2P4cIhdaddY97jhFbDSVAHLbMF5SUOVA/s1600-h/beastthatwas.jpg"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer;" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjfxBzVBWyfh1D9FgouDSZNYhR1H5i1BPngKWN94NGfBI60A52Wk25PjGL98wQqHQ5rTUY69_n10KFEvmLVog2G0LWSRYsJmM5eNko2Jm2P4cIhdaddY97jhFbDSVAHLbMF5SUOVA/s320/beastthatwas.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5155949137671075010" border="0" /></a><br /><br /><br />Continuing in my thoughts from part six of The Beast Empire Study, it seems that the beast in Revelation 17:8-13 must be an individual, and not the entire beast system that has seven heads and ten horns as seen in verse seven. I explained my thoughts on this previously, but click the picture to the left to enlarge it for a visual example of what I believe.<br /><br /><a href="http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2008/01/beast-empirewas-beast-was-or-is-part-7.html">Click here</a> to go to part seven of the Beast Empire study. And if you're new here, <a href="http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2007/11/beast-empire-part-1.html">click here</a> to begin at the beginning of this study.</div>PWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.com6tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20387335.post-82379914108910448162008-01-14T09:36:00.000-06:002008-01-14T09:39:53.932-06:00New Pre-wrath Book<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEikh20uFPyVu3i1s74up2kXUj8wkEFfXRv0RUTK55vCwmczKK1eG3Cfm0G5yaC8oTWDxDuAxSpCtVh1JFos79HmrU91iQM-eJT9IY15graTdBCWluznGL_5ANNPiYCObaFG8V7y4Q/s1600-h/CoopElect.jpg"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer;" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEikh20uFPyVu3i1s74up2kXUj8wkEFfXRv0RUTK55vCwmczKK1eG3Cfm0G5yaC8oTWDxDuAxSpCtVh1JFos79HmrU91iQM-eJT9IY15graTdBCWluznGL_5ANNPiYCObaFG8V7y4Q/s320/CoopElect.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5155357261112915122" border="0" /></a><br /><br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;"><br /></span><div style="text-align: justify;"><br /><br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;">If you're not aware of the new pre-wrath book by Charles Cooper that has just been released, <a href="http://www.prewrathrapture.com/2008/01/new_prewrath_book_release.php">click here</a> for all the details.</span></div>PWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20387335.post-51633747558383422152008-01-07T17:23:00.000-06:002008-01-18T14:56:50.265-06:00The Beast Empire—The Mystery Beast That Will Come: Part 6<div style="text-align: justify;">Thus far I’ve covered the basics for my beliefs of the six heads, the ten horns and some related issues with the future beast empire. Some of my conclusions have been based on facts that I have no doubts about, but a few things were certainly debatable and are open-ended due to the difficulty factor of some of the passages within question.<br /><br />I’m the type that likes facts, and I don’t always enjoy issues within verses that I believe are too vague to be dogmatic about. But still, these verse and issues need to be evaluated. I bring this up because of the topic I’m writing of now, and will continue to write of for at least one or two more posts—the beast that was, is not and will come, and the seventh and eighth kings of Revelation 17. There are so many conclusions concerning these kings and this mystery beast that will come, and I admit that I am not completely satisfied with all of my conclusions, but no matter what position I try to consider it seems that I always end up concluding that my belief seems like the most viable one (don’t we all?). I refuse to speak dogmatically about this topic, but I will do my best to present my case the best I know how to as I hold the opinion that we will just have to wait and see to know for sure.<br /><br />And for the record, if anyone desires to come forward claiming that they have the contents of Revelation 17 nailed down to factual conclusions with no “ifs,” “ands” or “buts,” I would like to stress that I believe that anyone that speaks dogmatically about every detail in chapter 17 is at the very least, foolish, and quite possibly even stupid beyond recovery! That being said, blogs and web sites are a perfect place for every kind of individual under the sun to express their every opinion, and it is certainly your right to be dogmatic if you desire, but I think wisdom advises against it.<br /><br />Revelation 17:7-8<br />And the angel said to me, "Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. <span style="font-weight: bold;">8 </span>The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction and those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come."<br /><br />It seems quite obvious, at first, that the beast that “was and is not and will come” must be the same beast spoken of in the previous verse that carried the woman. At first glance it flows perfectly. After all, the angel in verse seven said that he was going to tell John the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, and then continues in verse eight by saying, “The beast that you saw.” But it also, for more than one reason, seems to me that something else is going on here.<br /><br />The beast spoken of in verse seven is a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns (Rev. 17:3). As I’ve attempted to show in previous posts this beast’s heads represent beast empires, or the kings of those empires, while the ten horns represent kings that will be present when the future eighth king reigns. How can this beast that is a combination, or a collage, of all of these entities, be the beast that “was, and is not?” This scarlet beast is not an individual king, an individual empire, spirit, or even the individual himself (Satan). How can a beast that is made up of seven kings of seven empires, and of ten more kings (including the final, and eighth) be spoken of as something that “was, and is not, and is about to come?” It no longer flows smoothly as it first seems to as it’s simply read from verse seven to verse eight.<br /><br />Furthermore, we know that Rome is in existence at the time of this vision, and considering the fact that Rome is one of the heads of this scarlet beast it seems unlikely that it could also be included in an entire scarlet beast that “was, and <span style="font-weight: bold;">is not</span>.” Rome <span style="font-weight: bold;">is</span> (or the king of Rome “is” v. 10) , while the beast of verse eight “<span style="font-weight: bold;">is not</span>,” therefore, again, it seems that the entirety of the scarlet beast is not in view here.<br /><br />I believe the vision makes a beast shift in verse eight and begins speaking of an individual beast. Some will say that this interpretation is very awkward, and I understand this, but as I’ve considered this for many years I do not think that it is awkward.<br /><br />What if, instead of simply continuing to speak of the entirety of the scarlet beast, the angel begins explaining the scarlet beast by speaking of one aspect of the entire beast system by focusing in on only one of it’s many beastish parts? After all, the explanation to John continues in this manner by explaining one aspect at a time. The angel explains what the seven heads are, what the ten horns are, that there is an eighth king and that the ten kings will be in cahoots with the eighth. All of these revelations are small aspects of the entire scarlet beast that, when combined, make up the scarlet beast in all its “glory.”<br /><br />Therefore, in verse seven, when the angel says, “I will tell you the mystery…of the beast,” and then continues in verse eight by speaking of “the beast you saw,” it no longer has to be the same entire scarlet beast he just mentioned because the focus shifts to begin speaking of individual parts of the scarlet beast so that John would gain the full picture once the explanation was complete. I will come back to this textual beast shift later.<br /><br />I think that the “beast that you [John] saw (v. 8)” is referring to the beast that John previously saw in his vision that we have recorded for us in chapter thirteen. <span style="font-style: italic;">The</span> beast. The Antichrist. He will wage war against the saints and will overcome them and he will demand worship from the world (Rev. 13:7-8) until his inevitable destruction by the Son, our redeemer.<br /><br /><a href="http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2008/01/beast-empire-visual-of-beast-that-was.html">Click here to continue to the next part of this study.</a><br /><br />And if you are just showing up here and would like to begin at the beginning of this Beast Empire study, <a href="http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2007/11/beast-empire-part-1.html">click here for part one</a>.<br /></div>PWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.com6tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20387335.post-29907932433233566842008-01-01T23:41:00.001-06:002008-01-07T17:43:51.722-06:00The Beast Empire — Six Headed Chart<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiFW2WuDzRr_kAmqkWdBV8J7c4pq4le3Q5_vwz2I7GlgNtmznKcQM2pu8dUignZLIdPt6F992HWL7l4wAgppJ6VcHqf3yQHQesINKu1TUWlTfRy9VuVpBR76GGUuw55cQFExXEmbQ/s1600-h/sixheads.jpg"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer;" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiFW2WuDzRr_kAmqkWdBV8J7c4pq4le3Q5_vwz2I7GlgNtmznKcQM2pu8dUignZLIdPt6F992HWL7l4wAgppJ6VcHqf3yQHQesINKu1TUWlTfRy9VuVpBR76GGUuw55cQFExXEmbQ/s320/sixheads.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5150750406176781474" border="0" /></a><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><span style="font-size:85%;">Click chart to enlarge.</span><br /><br /><div style="text-align: justify;">If you're anything like me you like things simplified. I try my best to write in a simple form that makes it easy for all to follow, and sometimes a picture is all it takes to make a teaching come to life. This chart is a continuation of what I have been writing of in the previous six posts related to the Beast Empire, and gives a visual of my conclusions laid out in <a href="http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2007/12/beast-empireseven-heads-part-5.html">part five</a>. Click <a href="http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2008/01/beast-empirethe-mystery-beast-that-will.html">HERE </a>to go to part six.<br /></div>PWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.com4tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20387335.post-30340130824129545882007-12-31T07:53:00.000-06:002007-12-31T07:54:41.185-06:00Another Thank YouAnother person has placed me as a permanent link on their blog. Thanks!<br /><br /><a href="http://davidjbutterfield.blogspot.com/">http://davidjbutterfield.blogspot.com/</a>PWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20387335.post-40806725575537831382007-12-30T23:18:00.000-06:002007-12-30T23:33:27.334-06:00New Web Site: Fourthstream.com<div style="text-align: justify;">A friend has recently started a web site that already has quite a bit of content. It's not your usual web site, and is fairly broad. It's in it's beginning stages of being an online independent radio station and it contains a free download of Dave's harmony of the four gospels, another book he wrote, art, study guides, podcasts, people's stories and more. Give it a chance and see what you think. Those of us that spend too much time studying prophecy need to branch out!<br /><br /><span style="font-size:180%;"><a href="http://www.fourthstream.com/">Fourthstream.com</a><br /><br /><br /></span></div>PWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20387335.post-79670668664957916212007-12-27T15:08:00.000-06:002007-12-31T07:53:08.425-06:00Polls, Visitors, Statistics and Search Words<div style="text-align: justify;">Within the last few weeks I decided to watch my web site statistics a little closer to try and figure out who was coming here, where you were coming from and why. I took a poll that many of you overlooked, but I still think that it portrayed accurately that most that visit here are pre-wrath believers, or are at least leaning in that direction. Some of you are pre-tribbers, while only one lonely preterist accidentally wandered in to vote.<br /><br />I’ve been checking my <a href="http://www.statcounter.com/">stat counter</a> on a daily basis, and if you don’t have one for your web site I suggest you get one. It helps. In doing so, search words have become my favorite thing to check. It’s been fun to see words typed into people’s search bars that bring them to this site to find exactly what they’re looking for such as “<a href="http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2006/01/are-matthew-24-and-luke-21-same.html">Matthew 24 and Luke 21 compared</a>,” “<a href="http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2006/02/revelation-310-pre-trib-foundation.html">Revelation 3:10 pre-wrath</a>,” “<a href="http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2007/05/blog-post.html">pre-wrath Revelation chart</a>,” “<a href="http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2006/01/preterists-turn-jesus-into-false.html">preterist are wrong</a>” or “<a href="http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2007/09/is-israel-fig-tree.html">is fig tree Israel</a>.” There’s even been <span style="font-style: italic;">ten</span> people that, I'm assuming, have come here by accident in their search for a photo of little <a href="http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2006/05/off-topic-da-vinci-hype.html">Opie</a> from the Andy Griffith Show!<br /><br />It’s been downright funny to see some of you enter entire sentences into your search bar as if your computer can hear and reason like a human being. Sorry for making fun of you, but I’m not financially supported by your giving, so I can do as I please! One example would be “how does revelation take place?” The two longest search word winners are both related to the <a href="http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2007/11/beast-empire-part-1.html">Beast Empire</a> study I'm previously working on, and the winners are:<br /><br />“What does the individual pieces of Daniel's statue represent?”<br /><br />And:<br /><br />“The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is.”<br /><br />I’ve gotten a plethora of visitors due to their searches for <a href="http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2007/11/its-official-john-hagee-has-gone-mad.html">John Hagee</a>, and most of these searches don’t bode well for Mr. Sensational. The top three that entertained me the most were “John Hagee shot in his church,” John Hagee is an idiot” and John Hagee the idiot!” Poor John.<br /><span style="display: block;" id="formatbar_Buttons"><span class="down" style="display: block;" id="formatbar_CreateLink" title="Link" onmouseover="ButtonHoverOn(this);" onmouseout="ButtonHoverOff(this);" onmouseup="" onmousedown="CheckFormatting(event);FormatbarButton('richeditorframe', this, 8);ButtonMouseDown(this);"></span></span><br />And I don't want to leave out the fact that there’s been noticeable visitors coming from the following places the last few weeks. I wanted to thank those of you that have placed my blog on your blog or web site.<br /><a href="http://davidjbutterfield.blogspot.com/"><br />http://davidjbutterfield.blogspot.com/</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.watchmanbiblestudy.com/about.htm">http://www.watchmanbiblestudy.com/about.htm</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.strongtowerpublishing.com/prewrath.htm">http://www.strongtowerpublishing.com/prewrath.htm</a><br /><br /><a href="http://dyspraxicfundamentalist.blogspot.com/">http://dyspraxicfundamentalist.blogspot.com/</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.evangelicalsanonymous.blogspot.com/">http://www.evangelicalsanonymous.blogspot.com/</a><br /><br /><a href="http://youarenotindarkness.blogspot.com/">http://youarenotindarkness.blogspot.com/</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.prewrathrapture.com/">http://www.prewrathrapture.com/</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.prophecy.iblog.co.za/">http://www.prophecy.iblog.co.za/</a><br /><br />And a big thanks to all of you that keep telling others about the Tribune as you post on other blogs and forums. Don’t think I haven't noticed. It’s fun to see and it’s what keeps this place active, so keep up the good work.<br /><br />Dave<br /><br /></div>PWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.com32tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20387335.post-46330537844676378462007-12-23T22:01:00.000-06:002008-01-01T23:51:10.489-06:00The Beast Empire—Seven Heads: Part 5<div style="text-align: justify;">Now we come to Revelation 13.<br /><br />And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. (Revelation 13:1-2)<br /><br />In Daniel 7 we saw a lion that represented the Babylonian empire, a bear that was symbolic of the Medo/Persian empire and a leopard that paralleled the Grecian empire. This beast in Revelation 13 is said to have body parts from each of the previous beasts we’ve discussed in Daniel. The “dreadful and terrifying beast” that signified the Roman empire in Daniel is not directly mentioned in verses 1-2, but as we continue in this study I think it will become apparent that it, too, is clearly represented in this beast entity.<br /><br />There is much debate concerning who this beast is in chapter thirteen and who the seven heads are. Daniel only told us of five empires, but in this Revelation account we see seven heads. Chapter seventeen expands upon this and further identifies that these heads are indeed representative of the kings of the beast empires.<br /><br />Here is the mind which has wisdom The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. (Revelation 17:9-10)<br /><br />Some read of the seven mountains in Revelation and conclude that they are the seven hills that present day Rome consists of, but I tend to lean towards the thought that the seven mountains are simply symbolic of each individual empire as a whole, while the heads are symbolic of the leaders of that empire. In my <a href="http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2007/12/beast-empire-part-2.html">second installment </a>of this semi-short study I showed that the beasts in Daniel were clearly dualistic, meaning that they were spoken of as empires <span style="font-style: italic;">and</span> as kings of those empires, and I think that the same idea is portrayed here in Revelation, though this mountain interpretation of mine may be debatable. I’m open to suggestions.<br /><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">_________________________</span><br /><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);font-size:130%;" ><span style="font-weight: bold;">A Change of Mind</span></span><br /><br /><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">After I wrote this entry I had a new thought that I have previously overlooked and I thought that I should amend this post for accuracy. I think that the seven mountains may not be speaking of the empires of the kings as I suggested above.</span><br /><br /><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">Here's why:</span><br /><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits and they are seven kings... (Rev 17:9-10)</span><br /><br /><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">The seven heads are the SYMBOLIC message. The symbolic is made clear and interpreted to be seven kings. It doesn't make sense that a symbolic message would be interpreted to be a literal seven kings only to give another symbolic answer in "the mountains." I think the mountains must be literal, and not another symbolic answer that came from the original symbolic vision. </span><br /><br /><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">You saw it here first. Someone that writes a prophecy blog admitting that they were probably wrong about something!</span><br /><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">_________________________ </span><br /><br />Nevertheless, Revelation 17:10 makes it clear that the seven heads are seven kings. But these seven kings are two more than were spoken of in Daniel, so who are these extra kings?<br /><br />…five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come... (Revelation 17:9-10)<br /><span style="font-size:130%;"><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">Walking Backwards </span></span><br /><br />I think the logical way to begin is to begin with what we know, and that is that one king “is” according to this vision, and we know that the kingdom in existence at the time of this vision that John had was Rome, therefore “five have fallen” before Rome. Considering Revelation links its beast to Daniel’s by showing it’s leopard, lion and bear qualities, and that the end of the world that Daniel spoke of is the same end spoken of in Revelation, and that the final beast empire that Daniel wrote about is the same that John speaks of in Revelation, it seems that we should, as usual, be able to combine the two accounts of the beast empires to gain a bigger and better picture.<br /><br />Knowing that Rome is the kingdom present in John’s day we should be able to search in reverse order from this point and follow the trail that Daniel left us. Daniel showed that the empires previous to the Roman empire were Grecian, Medo/Persian, and first, at the time of Daniel, was the Babylonian empire. But still, according to Revelation the king of Rome was the <span style="font-style: italic;">sixth</span> king, and including the three previous to Rome as we just have we only have the fifth, fourth and third kings clarified. Where do the other two “heads” come from?<br /><br />Again, and as usual, there is debate, but it seems the simplest answer is found in the two empires previous to Babylon. Daniel’s vision began for him at a place where it was relevant to him and his people. God was showing Daniel what would take place in Israel’s near and distant <span style="font-style: italic;">future</span>, thus the vision began with the king/kingdom that was present in Daniel’s day (Babylon) and moved forward until the vision culminated into the final empire. But here in Revelation 13 and 17 I believe that John is given a much broader view of the entire history and future of the beast empires combined.<br /><br />In Revelation chapter seventeen it’s made clear that the vision included the historical kings/kingdoms that were previous to John and the Roman empire, so there is really no reason to reject that the vision could include empires previous to Daniel’s vision, too. It seems that one reason this historical view is given is to show believers in Christ who the <span style="font-style: italic;">real</span> leader of each of these empires actually is, and has been, since the beginning. It is Satan. In chapter twelve we see a beast in heaven that is described as a dragon, and this dragon is shown to have seven heads and ten horns just as the beast out of the sea in chapter thirteen is said to have.<br /><br />Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. (Revelation 12:3)<br /><br />It seems to me that this is done in order to give us insight into this satanic beast system. The beast system, from beginning to end, is a part of Satan’s system engineered to persecute the saints and to further rebel against God and His eternal kingdom.<br /><br />And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. (Revelation 12:9)<br /><br />Though the above passage is not speaking of the original instance when Satan was cast from heaven, it clearly indicates that the dragon represents him. Maybe I will delve further at another time into this second instance where Satan will be thrown from the heavens.<br /><br />As it usually goes with writing of prophecy I’ve gotten off track. So who were the two main empires that were previous to Daniel as shown in the Bible? They can be none other than Egypt and Assyria, thus we have in John’s vision a seven headed beast that shows Satan’s beast system from beginning to end, from the Egyptian empire to the beast empire’s end sometime in the, potentially, not too distant future.<br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">It’s Still Rome</span></span><br /><br />What I’ve discussed above adds to my list of reasons why I believe that the fourth beast of Daniel must be Rome rather than the Islamic empire that began rising years afterwards with Muhammad’s conquests as some have suggested. While some of the below reasons are closely related to each other, there are different nuances within each that merit mentioning.<br /><br />1. It seems awkward that Daniel’s vision would skip over the Roman empire when I consider the importance that Rome played in biblical history.<br /><br />2. Adding to the above thought, why would Daniel exclude Rome considering the fact that the 69th week concluded during the Roman Empire?<br /><br />3. The Roman king in Revelation 17 is clearly indicated as the king/kingdom that “is” at the time of John, and that it is one of the beast’s heads within the entire beast system.<br /><br />4. Considering the smooth parallels between the books of Revelation and Daniel, why exclude Rome in Daniel when it’s clearly mentioned in Revelation?<br /><br />5. The number of empires add up perfectly when Biblical history is combined with the two books. According to Revelation, Rome was the sixth empire. Counting backwards from Rome there were five other world empires that previously fell just as chapter seventeen indicates.<br /><br />6. It makes sense that Egypt and Syria were not mentioned in Daniel. This smoothly brings us to the sixth, Rome, in Revelation 17.<br /><br />7. The fact that Revelation includes Rome as part of the beast system makes it seem illogical for me to conclude that the Roman empire is not mentioned in Daniel's beasts.<br /><br />If you have other reasons related to Daniel or Revelation that ad to the above seven, please comment and let me/us know.<br /><br />Now I could also go into Daniel nine and discuss the seventieth week in more detail in an attempt to add to the above list, but Charles Cooper’s book release that covers the 70th Week is just around the corner and I feel I would do the subject absolutely no justice when compared to his work. I’m seriously looking forward to this new book that will most certainly add to my understanding of Daniel nine and that, of course, comes from a pre-wrath author. Maybe he or Alan will send me a free copy. I would do it for them.<br /><br /><a href="http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2008/01/chart-first-six-heads-of-revelation-17.html">Click here for a visual of the six heads discussed in this post.<br /></a><br /><br /><br /></div>PWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.com15tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20387335.post-26616539896220766092007-12-18T16:23:00.000-06:002007-12-19T15:45:24.452-06:00Take the Poll!Let's find out exactly who is reading this blog. Take the poll on the left side of this page and we'll see who comes here over the next week.PWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.com10tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20387335.post-8451766821100259912007-12-17T20:19:00.001-06:002008-01-02T00:10:06.716-06:00The Beast Empire—Empire Charts According to Daniel<a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi0g_Po1QWSC_clRyzsh1zhuGag0r-6Fn11gzrCxWVVMwLxUvtc3sPw9BRlO3xl8b_hA0o2GyOTgtY0g4-JLpN_xtpAyYxZgCLIOswEOz0SfErc8g0zNRr1KXE4AggtFRmlZCTJ1g/s1600-h/DanielVisionChart.jpg"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer;" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi0g_Po1QWSC_clRyzsh1zhuGag0r-6Fn11gzrCxWVVMwLxUvtc3sPw9BRlO3xl8b_hA0o2GyOTgtY0g4-JLpN_xtpAyYxZgCLIOswEOz0SfErc8g0zNRr1KXE4AggtFRmlZCTJ1g/s320/DanielVisionChart.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5146580087421645970" border="0" /></a><br /><a onblur="try {parent.deselectBloggerImageGracefully();} catch(e) {}" href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgRJmLJ-z2kXbD4RlI7iaLdDLnv9TJaYwQhyphenhyphenZkExUskp-dTBCnz4EEmQuQSPJ2hK7COl9SQ_gvSs_iBWMrc0p_oK2NMifSpaN6jjlm3iMq5PCxORZles__0hiC6ovEd98pyAXcSSw/s1600-h/BeastHornsChart.jpg"><img style="margin: 0pt 10px 10px 0pt; float: left; cursor: pointer;" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgRJmLJ-z2kXbD4RlI7iaLdDLnv9TJaYwQhyphenhyphenZkExUskp-dTBCnz4EEmQuQSPJ2hK7COl9SQ_gvSs_iBWMrc0p_oK2NMifSpaN6jjlm3iMq5PCxORZles__0hiC6ovEd98pyAXcSSw/s320/BeastHornsChart.jpg" alt="" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5146580022997136514" border="0" /></a><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><span style="font-size:85%;">Click charts to enlarge.</span><br />Here are some charts that give a picture of what I've previously written of in the first four posts related to the Beast Empire. Just click the chart to enlarge it. <a href="http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2007/12/beast-empireseven-heads-part-5.html">Click here to go to part five. </a>PWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.com3tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20387335.post-87253968879677781342007-12-16T22:10:00.000-06:002007-12-21T14:53:16.214-06:00The Beast Empire—The Ten Toes After What?: Part 4<div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size:130%;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Among or After?</span></span><br /><br />Now, a problem arises when we compare Daniel’s vision to the <span style="font-style: italic;">interpretation</span> of the vision. In <a href="http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2007/12/beast-empire-according-to-daniel-part-3.html">part three of this Beast Empire study</a> we just saw that the “little horn” will come up <span style="font-style: italic;">among</span> the ten horns, but the explanation of the vision given to Daniel <span style="font-style: italic;">seems</span> to say otherwise.<br /><br />As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom (fourth kingdom) ten kings will arise; and another will arise <span style="font-weight: bold;">after</span> them… (Dan. 7:24)<br /><br />This is one of the main argument people use to prove that the ten horns are historical. They claim it’s a fact that the above passage teaches that each horn/kingdom will spring up and replace the previous horn, one after the other, and that the “little horn,” or "another" horn, as it's called in the above passage, is not a contemporary with all ten due to the word “after.”<br /><br />But considering the conclusions I’ve come to in the previous posts I believe there must be another answer for this dilemma. The “after” doesn’t necessarily need to mean that the ten kings are historical kings that are dead and gone or usurped. It seems very reasonable to conclude that the word “after,” and it’s clear timing implication, should not place emphasis upon the “little horn” and his specific place in time. I think the emphasis should be placed upon when he arises to power in relation to the period when the ten kings receive their power. The ten kings <span style="font-style: italic;">arise to power first</span>, and <span style="font-style: italic;">then </span>the “little horn” arises to his place of power <span style="font-style: italic;">after</span> they have risen to power, but while their power still remains, thus the "little horn" comes up <span style="font-style: italic;">among</span> the ten <span style="font-style: italic;">and</span> arises <span style="font-style: italic;">after</span> them. This makes sense considering the ten must already be in power in order to fulfill their purpose—to give the beast their authority, helping him establish his empire and rise to power.<br /><br /><span id="en-NASB-30989" class="sup"></span>The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour. These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast. (Revelation 17:12-13).<br /><a href="http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2007/12/beast-empireempire-charts.html"><br />Click here to go to the charts I've created that display what we've covered to this point. </a><br /></div>PWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.com23tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20387335.post-45290029766042329302007-12-14T10:06:00.000-06:002007-12-14T10:13:12.306-06:00Pre-wrathers Are Brighter Than Jesus?<div style="text-align: justify;">A reader has <a href="http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2007/10/rapture-recorder.html">posted a comment</a> claiming that "prewrath believers are in direct disobedience to the Lord's commands." In fact, he suggests that we need to "grow up," and that we are "deliberately disobeying" God's commands. He also adds that we "think [we] are brighter than Jesus." Do any of my other readers care to address this individual? It might be a good learning/teaching experience for lurkers.</div>PWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.com10tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20387335.post-29316685198332672812007-12-13T22:10:00.000-06:002007-12-13T22:41:20.966-06:00Romney, Huckabee and Mormonism<div style="text-align: justify; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);font-family:lucida grande;"><span style="font-size:100%;"><span family="SANSSERIF" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">I'm taking a break from the Beast Empire study I'm presently working on to briefly mention a current event. Most of us have heard <a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316548,00.html">the political hype</a> related to republican Mike Huckabee's question concerning Mormonism. Huckabee asked, "</span></span><span style="font-size:100%;">Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?" Huckabee later apologized and Romney accepted, though Mitt claimed that it's untrue that the Church of the Latter-day Saints teach that Satan and Jesus are brothers. This will certainly continue to drag on for the next few days on every radio talk show so I thought I would post the actual facts so that we can all know the truth of the matter. Romney was wrong about his religion. </span><br /><br /><span style="font-size:130%;"><span family="SANSSERIF" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><a href="http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-6,00.html"><span style="font-weight: bold;">From the library of the Latter-day Saints</span></a></span></span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><span family="SANSSERIF" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> </span></span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, "Whom shall I send?" (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, "Here am I, send me" (Abraham 3:27).</span></span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> </span></span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Jesus was willing to come to the earth, give his life for us, and take upon himself our sins. He, like our Heavenly Father, wanted us to choose whether we would obey Heavenly Father's commandments. He knew we must be free to choose in order to prove ourselves worthy of exaltation. Jesus said, "Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever" (Moses 4:2).</span></span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> </span></span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, "Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor" (Moses 4:1). Satan wanted to force us all to do his will. Under his plan, we would not be allowed to choose. He would take away the freedom of choice that our Father had given us. Satan wanted to have all the honor for our salvation.</span></span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> </span></span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> After hearing both sons speak, Heavenly Father said, "I will send the first" (Abraham 3:27).</span></span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> </span></span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Because our Heavenly Father chose Jesus Christ to be our Savior, Satan became angryand rebelled. There was war in heaven. Satan and his followers fought against Jesus and his followers. </span></span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> </span></span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> In this great rebellion, Satan and all the spirits who followed him were sent away from the presence of God and cast down from heaven. One-third of the spirits in heaven were punished for following Satan: they were denied the right to receive mortal bodies.</span></span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> </span></span><br /><span style="font-size:100%;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> Because we are here on earth and have mortal bodies, we know that we chose to follow Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father. Satan and his followers are also on the earth, but as spirits. They have not forgotten who we are, and they are around us daily, tempting us and enticing us to do things that are not pleasing to our Heavenly Father. In our premortal life, we chose the right. We must continue to choose the right here on earth. Only by following Jesus can we return to our heavenly home.</span></span><br /><br /></div>PWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20387335.post-56691159464682366382007-12-10T13:25:00.000-06:002007-12-16T22:17:08.861-06:00The Beast Empire—Timing the Ten Horns: Part 3<div style="text-align: justify;"><br />Now we’ve finally come to the fourth beast which coincides with the statue’s legs of iron in Daniel chapter two. I will only be discussing three or four verses, but what loaded verses they are!<br /><br />The vision continues from the last blog entry:<br /><br />After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. (Dan. 7:7)<br /><br />As I’ve explained previously, I’m viewing the fourth beast as Rome. Rome certainly did its share of crushing and trampling, and when pictured as a “beast” it makes sense that part of its demolition of the former empire and culture would be viewed as devouring. The thought that the beast “devoured,” or ate the previous beast, seems parallel to Rome as it adopted, absorbed or digested the previous empire and surrounding cultures. Rome assimilated surrounding lands and peoples into it’s beasty belly.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">The Pope?</span><br /><br />And as I perused the internet today it became apparent that many people that agree with me that Rome is the fourth beast part ways with me by viewing the ten horns as historical. They claim that the ten horns represent ten kingdoms that branched from Rome thus culminating into the Catholic Church.<br /><br />I’ve spent a fair amount of time in study considering the papal system as the Antichrist, and I understand why some would come to this conclusion, especially those who were alive during the religious domination of the Catholic church in its historical setting. But as I set aside mere appearances and similarities and interpret the Bible with itself rather than with headlines or history it seems to me that this is an impossibility.<br /><br />Many see the vision of Daniel and rightly conclude that the ten toes/horns are very closely related and linked to Rome. They then conclude that the ten toes/horns must be historical. But it seems as if they see what they want to see, maybe due to their extreme distaste for Catholicism, when they gloss over the details to arrive at their conclusion. I admit that the vision does appear to link the toes and horns in the manner these individuals are interpreting it, but the details of the vision and the book of Revelation make this a poor conclusion in my opinion.<br /><br />The vision Daniel wrote of says this:<br /><br />…it (Rome beast) was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. (Dan. 7:7)<br /><br />As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom (Rome beast) ten kings will arise… (Dan. 24)<br /><br />It does appear that the beast’s horns should be present along with the fourth beast when this is all we read, but verse 24 also says that the “little horn,” the Antichrist, will “subdue three kings.” Verse 8 tells us that it’s three of the <span style="font-style: italic;">first</span> horns that are uprooted.<br /><br />While I was contemplating the [ten] horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and <span style="font-weight: bold;">three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it</span> (before/by the little horn)… (Dan. 7:8)<br /><br />How can he subdue three of the ten kings if they are historical kings that aren’t in power at the time of the future Antichrist? These three kings that are subdued can be nothing other than three of the ten kings that are represented by the horns.<br /><br />Later, the ten horns are seen once again in Revelation 12, 13 and 17. I will show more of the linkage between the horns of Daniel and Revelation at a later time, but for now notice what Revelation 17 says:<br /><br />The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings <span style="font-weight: bold;">with</span> the beast for one hour. These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast. (Rev. 17:12-13)<br /><br />Compare this to what Daniel wrote:<br /><br />While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up <span style="font-weight: bold;">among</span> them… (Dan. 7:8)<br /><br />Revelation informs us that the ten kings receive authority <span style="font-style: italic;">with</span> the beast/Antichrist for one hour. This coincides with Daniel’s vision when he wrote that the “little horn,” or Antichrist will come “up <span style="font-style: italic;">among</span>” the ten horns/kings. “With” and “among” seem pretty clear. The details are fuzzy, though, concerning exactly when the “little horn” will subdue three of the ten, but it seems logical to me that this subduing will take place after the Antichrist comes to power at the midpoint of the Seventieth Week when we consider the fact that Revelation says that the ten will give him their power. After all, the Antichrist and his power is not a real biblical issue before the midpoint.<br /><br />Certainly Daniel makes it clear that it is the fourth beast that has ten horns, and that the ten grow from the head of the fourth beast. But considering the conclusions I have written of here, and other conclusion in the future posts I will make, I hope it is, or will be, clear that the horns are not contemporaries of, or even closely related in time to, the historical Rome/fourth beast.<br /><br />The way the horns are presented as growing from the fourth beast is one reason why many conclude all are historical, but it is also one reason why many, including myself, see the ten kings and the beast empire as a sort of revived Roman empire. The horns must be future, yet they grow from the head of the fourth beast, thus the link to historical Rome and the term “Revived Roman Empire” to describe the empire of the future "lawless one." What exactly this "Revived Roman Empire" will be, I suppose only time will tell. And if you can think of a better term to describe the beast empire that will come from the fourth, dreadful and terrifying beast, I would like to hear it.<br /><br /><a href="http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2007/12/beast-empirethe-ten-toes-after-what.html">Click here to go to The Beast Empire—The Ten Toes After What?: Part 4</a><br /></div>PWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.com18tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20387335.post-77687456362873555922007-12-06T13:56:00.000-06:002007-12-16T22:06:03.333-06:00The Beast Empire—Daniel's Beasts: Part 2<div style="text-align: justify;">Just as it was shown in chapter two, chapter seven records a similar vision that Daniel had concerning the beast empires that will conclude with the “man of sin” sometime in the, potentially near, future.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">The Winged Lion</span><br /><br />And four great beasts were coming up from the sea, different from one another. The first was like a lion and had the wings of an eagle. I kept looking until its wings were plucked, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man; a human mind also was given to it. (Dan. 7:3-4)<br /><br />This first beast with the appearance of a winged lion corresponds with the head of gold in chapter two (Babylon). And I think that it’s safe to say that when verse four mentions “stand[ing] on two feet” and “a human mind” it is speaking of Nebuchadnezzar’s restoration from crazyville after God smote him with the mind of an animal due to his proud heart (4:29-34).<br /><br />This section of the vision also makes it clear to us that the particular statue portions (chapter 2) and beasts spoken of are not only empires, but are representative of the king, or leader of that empire, as well. Though the term “kingdom” is used numerous times in chapter two, Daniel made it clear that Nebuchadnezzar was the golden head of the statue.<br /><br />“You are the head of gold.” (Dan. 2:38)<br /><br />Plus, in the interpretation of this dream in chapter seven Daniel is told that they are more than just kingdoms.<br /><br />These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth. (Dan. 7:17)<br /><br />And the mentioning of Nebuchadnezzar’s mind restoration in 7:4 once again gives us a clue that these beasts are much more than just empires, but are individuals that rule the empires.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">The Bear </span><br /><br />And behold, another beast, a second one, resembling a bear. And it was raised up on one side, and three ribs were in its mouth between its teeth; and thus they said to it, 'Arise, devour much meat!’ (Dan. 7:5)<br /><br />Just as the silver chest and arms of chapter two represented the Medo/Persian empire that would follow Babylonian rule, this beast with the appearance of a bear represents the same king/kingdom. The three ribs in its mouth are probably symbolic of the three main conquests of this kingdom.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">The Four Headed Leopard With Four Wings</span><br /><br />After this I kept looking, and behold, another one, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird; the beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it. (Dan. 7:6)<br /><br />If you weren’t sure before this, I assume you can guess by now that this leopard beast coincides with the bronze thighs mentioned in Daniel chapter two. History helps us to know exactly what and who this beast was, and what the four heads represent.<br /><br />The Grecian empire and Alexander the Great fit this bill to a tee. Alexander the Great died in 323 BC, and his kingdom was split into four sections. The four heads in verse six are symbolic of those four kingdoms/kings that sprung from Greece after the death of Alexander.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">Shaggy Goat Parallel </span><br /><br />We see more clarification of this in Daniel eight when he had yet another vision. This time Daniel saw a shaggy goat, and Gabriel told him information that lines up with the leopard and four heads we’re discussing presently:<br /><br />The shaggy goat (parallels leopard of 7:6) represents the kingdom of Greece, and the large horn that is between his eyes is the first king (Alexander the Great). The broken horn (death of Alexander) and the four horns (parallel the four heads of 7:6) that arose in its place represent four kingdoms which will arise from his nation, although not with his power. (Dan. 8:21-22)<br /><br />In my next post we will continue in Daniel’s vision from chapter seven and seek to know more concerning the “dreadful and terrifying” beast that has ten horns. This is where it begins to get good, in my opinion.<br /><br /><a href="http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2007/12/beast-empire-according-to-daniel-part-3.html">Click here to go to <span style="font-style: italic;">The Beast Empire—Timing the Ten Horns: Part 3.</span></a><br /></div>PWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.com22tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20387335.post-65040183138092563082007-11-26T22:40:00.000-06:002008-01-23T17:59:32.965-06:00The Beast Empire—Daniel's Statue: Part 1<div style="text-align: justify;font-family:georgia;">The book of Daniel is deep water, and I am not attempting to address every detail. That kind of mission would need much more attention and time than me and my little blog have (and probably much more understanding). But I love the book of Daniel and desire that others at least get the basics of the dreams and visions and how they relate to the end and to the book of Revelation.<br /><br />I will also be linking Daniel's vision to John's vision in the book of Revelation, and will address many of the interpretations out there that I believe fall short of biblical accuracy. I’m not sure how many posts it will take to do this somewhat adequately, but at least eight or nine, I’m sure. And I will certainly get a chance to create some new charts that readers will either love or hate!<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">Daniel Chapter Two</span><br /><br />In Daniel chapter two Daniel interprets king Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. He informs the king that the statue represents kingdoms, that the gold head of the statue represents the king and that there will be four more kingdoms after him.<br /><div style="text-align: justify;"><br />Daniel said:<br />…You (king Nebuchadnezzar/Babylon) are the head of gold. After you there will arise another kingdom inferior to you (Medo/Persian), then another third kingdom of bronze (Greece), which will rule over all the earth. (Dan. 2:38-39)<br /></div><br />Now we come to the fourth kingdom. I recently read a book called <a href="http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2007/09/far-be-it-from-god-that-he-should-have.html">Antichrist: Islam’s Awaited Messiah</a> which presented a different beast scenario than the one I’m presenting. While I think that my conclusions have more merit, I admit that there are still details that I haven’t completely worked out yet, and I’m willing to say that I’m still thinking about Joel Richardson’s conclusions. At this point I’m not willing to be completely dogmatic about the fourth kingdom and whether it was Rome or Islamic, yet I will be writing from the perspective that it was Rome because it seems more logical to me. I would suggest that you compare my conclusions with your Bible, evaluate other end times scenarios and see what conclusions you come to after your own search.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">The Fourth Kingdom</span><br /><br />Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces. (Dan. 2:40)<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">The Antichrist’s Kingdom</span><br /><br />In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay.<br /><br />As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle.<br /><br />And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery. (Dan. 2:41-43)<br /><br />This final kingdom that is described as the feet and toes of the statue is the kingdom of the Antichrist, otherwise known as the “Little Horn” as he’s named in Daniel 7. As we continue we will find that these toes, or “kings,” are mentioned for a reason, and that the number of toes one’s feet has corresponds to the number of kings that give their power and authority to the Antichrist. These toes/kings will be seen again as we look into another vision of Daniel’s and into John’s vision in Revelation.<br /><a href="http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2007/12/beast-empire-part-2.html"><br />Click here to go to <span style="font-style: italic;">The Beast Empire—Daniel's Beasts: Part 2</span>.</a><br /><br /><br /></div>PWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.com34tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20387335.post-424378355058179062007-11-20T16:55:00.000-06:002007-11-20T17:02:29.748-06:00A Question About Daniel's Dream<div style="text-align: justify;">Hi Dave, I have been studying the pre-wrath view for about 8 months now, and I have taken it to be the one true rapture timing view of the bible. I think your chart is one of the best and most concise I have seen.<br /><br />Daniel 7:8-10 seems to relate the time of the antichrist's boasting with the opening of the “books.” I see this as the possible time of the opening of the 7 sealed scroll of Revelation at the midpoint of the week. Does this make sense?<br /><br />Thank you for the great study resources,<br />Your brother in Christ,<br />Jake<br /><br /><br />Jake,<br /><br />Thanks for the compliment of <a href="http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.com/2007/05/blog-post.html">my chart</a>, Jake. But I don't think that the verses within Daniel 7:9-10 are speaking of the midpoint. Yes, they are sandwiched in between mentioning what the Antichrist will do during the time of the Great Trib, but it seems clear that these verses are an interlude.<br /><br />Notice Rev 20:12:<br /><br />And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.<br /><br />Though this passage is speaking of the Great White Throne judgment that will take place after the millennium, I believe a similar instance will take place after the 70th Week before the millennium at the Sheep and Goats Judgment.<br /><br />But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. (Matthew 25:31-34)<br /><br />I would think that the books would be opened for the Sheep and Goats Judgment just as they would be during the Great White Throne Judgment, and I think this is probably what is being mentioned in Daniel 7:9-10. The scene in the throne room is showing us what is taking place as if they are getting ready for the judging that will be coming in their very near future.<br /><br />Some might say that this interlude in verses 9-10 is flashing forward all the way to the end of the Millennium to the Great White Throne Judgment, but that seems awkward to me, especially when we consider and apply verses 13-14 to the scenario.<br /><br />As for your conclusion that the scroll is opened at the midpoint of the seven years I will just have to say, “Maybe.” It’s not something that I will be dogmatic about.<br /><br />Good question!<br /><br />Dave<br /><br /></div>PWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20387335.post-4053410207915209832007-11-19T12:50:00.000-06:002007-11-19T12:52:06.324-06:00The Next Pres?<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/EjYv2YW6azE&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/EjYv2YW6azE&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object><br /><br />I'm not 100% sure of who I will vote for. I think I will just have to wait until it gets down to the line to see who's still standing, but this ad for Mike Huckabee is just too good. I wish there were more commercials like this one.PWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20387335.post-6186140008583527442007-11-14T18:40:00.000-06:002007-11-14T18:43:02.317-06:00It's Official: John Hagee HAS Gone Mad!Watch the video <a href="http://www.prewrathrapture.com/2007/11/has_john_hagee_gone_madjesus_never_claim.php">here.</a> And make sure you scroll down a bit to the bottom of Alan's post to see the clear biblical passage that refutes what Hagee is claiming.PWTribunehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10557826921449799140noreply@blogger.com16